Lampizator Horizon v. dCS Vivaldi Apex Listening Comparison

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello,

Please tell us your basis for this conclusion.

Which other DACs have you compared to the Wadax in the exact same system -- with only the DAC changing and everything else being held constant?

Thank you.

i think it's a mistake to use the word 'best' on forums (not that i have not been guilty using it from time to time). i think the farthest we can go is to claim something is our preference of what we have heard, or the best we have heard in our system. or if we are asked about our opinions then it's a little different and we can answer the question.

otherwise it's just polarizing and a challenge to others.

for my own self i did go through a process in my own system to answer my own questions, stepping thru isolating things to find as much truth as possible with known references. and shared that experience. which is no more or less than it was.

do i have an opinion on what digital is best? of course i do. but this thread is not where i will talk about it.

 

[Al M.]

Al then what is a usefull data point for you ???
Where do you base conclusions on?

The rare good sound at a show. But I already said that.

Good sound at dealers. Bad sound at dealers, not so much.

The sound in someone's home set-up that has been fine-tuned over a good amount of time. But even that can be severely lacking just based on a few little set-up issues that, if fixed, would result in a much better sound, so it is good to keep that in mind.

Hey, I only have to look at my own system. If I had heard the vastly better sound three years ago that I now get from the exact same components, I might not have believed that it is the same components.

In other words, don't draw hasty and/or facile conclusions.

 

[Holli82]

Agree with Mike L. that there is no best system or component out there. It comes down to personal preference and there will still be disagreements among us. Is Ferrari than Lamborghini? Is Bordeaux better than Napa cab?

 

[andromedaaudio]

In high end audio a lot has to do with

"May the largest advertising budget win ."

Thats the feeling i had on sunday after the show , after hearing all the " Big Names "

 

[Elliot G.]

i think it's a mistake to use the word 'best' on forums (not that i have not been guilty using it from time to time). i think the farthest we can go is to claim something is our preference of what we have heard, or the best we have heard in our system. or if we are asked about our opinions then it's a little different and we can answer the question.

otherwise it's just polarizing and a challenge to others.

for my own self i did go through a process in my own system to answer my own questions, stepping thru isolating things to find as much truth as possible with known references. and shared that experience. which is no more or less than it was.

do i have an opinion on what digital is best? of course i do. but this thread is not where i will talk about it.

I don't agree Mike. The term when used as the "overall best in the world" thats nonsense and I agree these claims are stupid. The term best in your opinion or in your system or that you have personally experienced are totally valid responses. Saying the _____ is the best DAC thats BS however saying that the ________ is the best DAC I have heard in my system is certainly a valid and positive reply. I find the term useless when people have not used the word in a logical way. No one has heard every thing and every combination and even if they could it still wouldn't be valid since as we ALL know you never just listen to the _______ you listen to the system /room/set up , all of which have huge influences over the sound we hear.

 

[Elliot G.]

Agree with Mike L. that there is no best system or component out there. It comes down to personal preference and there will still be disagreements among us. Is Ferrari than Lamborghini? Is Bordeaux better than Napa cab?

your catagfories are to vague and in that way there is no answer. Howver I could certainly say that Latour is better than a specific Napa Cab, but not all of one is better than all of the other. X can be better than Y but all of X is not better than all of Y.
Specifics are important, generalizations are useless.
The personal part is very valid as knowing the place of which these statements comes from IMO has more validilty than the statement itslef.
If there is a built in Bias ( say from Caesar LOL) then the statements power certainly holds less water

 

[andromedaaudio]

Magazines in the US use it all the time , so why cant i ?

Best DAC declared by the..... " Absolute " sound .
Best speaker under 10 K , best Cable above 5 K , best speaker above 200 K .
Best turntable under 25 K .

And then we have the whole Cost no object story
Those reviewers have no issues as to declaring "whats best ", so why should i limit myself lol

 

[2ndLiner]

What a great thing to be able to experience @pk_LA, comparing TOTL dCS and Lampizator DAC's! I had a Vivaldi One with the Vivaldi clock and Cybershaft 10mhz clock. It provided a very incisive, detailed sound with tonal accuracy and I really enjoyed it for a couple of years. But, after visits to a friend's hearing his excellent vinyl setup it would always take me a few days to settle back into my system as it would initially sound a tad too "digital." I had an opportunity to audition the Lampi Pacific several months ago, went for it and have never looked back. Fantastic, natural, realistic, immersive sound with plenty of detail and I never have that negative system reentry experience after visiting my friend. The only DAC I heard which I'd prefer is the Lampi Horizon but that, unfortunately, may be a financial bridge too far...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't agree Mike. The term when used as the "overall best in the world" thats nonsense and I agree these claims are stupid. The term best in your opinion or in your system or that you have personally experienced are totally valid responses. Saying the _____ is the best DAC thats BS however saying that the ________ is the best DAC I have heard in my system is certainly a valid and positive reply. I find the term useless when people have not used the word in a logical way. No one has heard every thing and every combination and even if they could it still wouldn't be valid since as we ALL know you never just listen to the _______ you listen to the system /room/set up , all of which have huge influences over the sound we hear.

upon further consideration, i retract my statement about not using "best". when i wrote it i considered deleting it immediately, as i was not fully comfortable and figured i needed to think it thru. and now i just cannot support it.

it's not any sort of simple all the way right or wrong to use best, only that it's relevant sometimes, and then you have to be prepared to defend it.

 

[Holli82]

your catagfories are to vague and in that way there is no answer. Howver I could certainly say that Latour is better than a specific Napa Cab, but not all of one is better than all of the other. X can be better than Y but all of X is not better than all of Y.
Specifics are important, generalizations are useless.
The personal part is very valid as knowing the place of which these statements comes from IMO has more validilty than the statement itslef.
If there is a built in Bias ( say from Caesar LOL) then the statements power certainly holds less water

I'll drink either and fine something to like with both; I think generalizations help and individual select a course (tube vs solid state...analog vs digital, horn vs box etc). THEN the specifics become important to each individual. We are seven pages into Horizon vs DCS and you know what?....still no consensus. Even the died in wool Horizon guys (full disclosure...I have one on order) can't agree on what tubes sound best with their DAC..

I agree with you that the source any statement regarding a particular piece of equipment or music should be analyzed but then it's up to us to the due diligence.

 

[KeithR]

I believe Roy Gregory, in addressing the preponderance of bad room sound at Munich, that exhibitors should step up their game in presenting good sound and stop blaming it on the conditions.

No doubt, this is easier said than done, but it does appear from many pictures, that not much effort is dedicated to acoustically treat rooms at shows with portable absorption and diffusion. I think that could make a big difference, particularly if focused toward near field listening. Some serious power conditioning or regeneration would also seem to make sense given the prevailing terrible power conditions at shows.

There is lots of acoustical treatment at US shows.

That compares with 90% of audiophiles who have none.

 

[KeithR]

As I have pointed out before, it is silly to judge from a mediocre or even bad sound at a show. There can be many reasons for such a sound that have nothing to do with the quality of the components.

It's why I usually don't go to shows. It's mostly pointless, even though there are exceptions, like for example at AXPONA 2017 the great BorderPatrol/Triode Wire Labs/Volti room.

Shows are fun! Meeting audio friends is fun! Talking to manufacturers is fun! Seeing and hearing high end toys is fun! Buying new records and cds is fun!

Apparently grumpy old men are part of the no fun group in Boston. Don’t forget your Wheaties tomorrow (as Doc Williams would say).

 

[Al M.]

Shows are fun! Meeting audio friends is fun! Talking to manufacturers is fun! Seeing and hearing high end toys is fun! Buying new records and cds is fun!

Apparently grumpy old men are part of the no fun group in Boston. Don’t forget your Wheaties tomorrow (as Doc Williams would say).

Did I say anything about fun or not fun at shows? I don't think so.

 

[howiebrou]

I just wanted to verify my suspicion that you were not reporting the results of legitimate, direct comparisons.

No comparison would really be legitimate in terms of determining the 'best' dac. All results are system and room dependent so whilst one dac might sound best to one particular person in one particular system in one particular room on one particular day, that can hardly translate to any other person, system, day or place. And this doesn't even consider the fact that no one has heard all the dacs in the world. So whilst you make a good point Ron, all auditions and comparisons are compromises and not legitimate.

 

[microstrip]

(...) All results are system and room dependent so whilst one dac might sound best to one particular person in one particular system in one particular room on one particular day, that can hardly translate to any other person, system, day or place. (...)

You should add recording dependent. Recording techniques and musical content can easily reverse the results.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No comparison would really be legitimate in terms of determining the 'best' dac. All results are system and room dependent so whilst one dac might sound best to one particular person in one particular system in one particular room on one particular day, that can hardly translate to any other person, system, day or place. And this doesn't even consider the fact that no one has heard all the dacs in the world.

Of course I agree with each of these points.

You know I never speak or write in terms of "the best" of anything for all of the subjective and idiosyncratic reasons you list.

 

[Ron Resnick]

all auditions and comparisons are compromises and not legitimate.

But I do not understand this at all. An audiophile auditioning in a leisurely way competing components in his/her own familiar system with familiar tracks and where the only thing changing in the system is the component being auditioned is, to me, a type of uncompromised and legitimate comparison.

 

[howiebrou]

But I do not understand this at all. An audiophile auditioning in a leisurely way competing components in his/her own familiar system with familiar tracks and where the only thing changing in the system is the component being auditioned is, to me, a type of uncompromised and legitimate comparison.

Well the original premise was a challenge with regards to the claim of 'best digital'. I was merely pointing out that there is no way one can really and legitimately ever come to this conclusion even if, like you suggest, the dac is the only thing that changes between comparisons. There are so many confounding issues in any comparison that trying to approach what could be construed as being vaguely legitimate, at least in scientific terms, would be an exercise in nauseum. I subscribe to a much simpler approach.

 

[Al M.]

But I do not understand this at all. An audiophile auditioning in a leisurely way competing components in his/her own familiar system with familiar tracks and where the only thing changing in the system is the component being auditioned is, to me, a type of uncompromised and legitimate comparison.

I took it as a tongue-in-cheek comment.

 

[howiebrou]

Of course I agree with each of these points.

You know I never speak or write in terms of "the best" of anything for all of the subjective and idiosyncratic reasons you list.

Perhaps people simply have differences in the way they express themselves when they think something is pretty damn good.