It’s hard to say. Both do a good job in my experience. KL is a time saver though with shorter overall cycle times, being able to run it non stop without heating concerns, and not having to change the water often. I also prefer it not using any detergents. I had ~80% of my collection cleaned with Degritter but went back and recleaned them all with the LP200T. I mostly buy used and don’t tolerate much noise.
KLAudio returns - new KD-CLN-LP200T RCM
- Thread starter tima
- Start date
i have an early LP200 as i live local to KLAudio and Peter the owner is a friend and visited my room numerous times. i've owned it for 8 years and except when it was new and i did have one issue (can't recall what it was), it's been perfect for me. i change the water often but otherwise zero issues. quick, does a great job, and while somewhat noisy it sits outside my room in my hallway and if my door is closed i cannot hear it with music playing. so i can clean and listen at the same time.
last summer i cleaned 1800 pressings with it over a 6 week period. cleaned and sampled each pressing. it worked perfectly. frankly i expected i might have issues with that big project and that my machine was older, but it just did it's job and no stress. at this point it's all gravy and i'll ride it into the sunset. with few exceptions i only clean records once, and plan no further big numbers of acquisitions.
the quality of the build is superb.
I’m up to 892 records through the LP200T now, no issues. When I was preparing my LP200 for sale I was cleaning the reservoir and there was a surprising amount of dirt in there. Have you been keeping yours clean? My LP200 was used so I don’t know the history of what was running through it. I feel better having the filter and bigger tank with the LP200T. I use a meter to monitor when to replace the water.
no. but as i mentioned i switch the water often, and when i do, i shake the LP200 back and forth vigorously as i dump the water. every few times i'll cycle clean water thru it. so any residue remaining has to be hard caked and not causing a problem. and the records i clean have dust, but not lots of other surface contamination.
decades ago i did have more problem pressings with serious cleaning needs and then i used my Loricraft with the chemicals and all that stuff. but in the last 10 years i have not seen any really nasty pressings that needed that sort of attention.
makes sense. except during my project, i change the water every month. but i don't use it very often. i have the negative ion CS Port and DS Audio devices which minimizes dust accumulation as i play my records.
I will say my Degritter mk1 eventually died. It was an early mk1 version though that had some differences with the final mk1. It was outside any warranty but Degritter was very fair with offering either an upgrade to the current mk1 or the new at that time mk2. Their support is superb.
With my LP200T purchased from Acoustic Sounds the unit arrived with a scratched front face plate. Sorry, for that kind of money it has to be perfect. AS support was pretty lame. They got me a new faceplate but left it up to me to replace it, not as simple as it sounds. Maybe if I would have pressed it harder or threatened returning it I could have received a new unit. Just kind of surprised they wanted an owner disassembling things.
With my LP200T purchased from Acoustic Sounds the unit arrived with a scratched front face plate. Sorry, for that kind of money it has to be perfect. AS support was pretty lame. They got me a new faceplate but left it up to me to replace it, not as simple as it sounds. Maybe if I would have pressed it harder or threatened returning it I could have received a new unit. Just kind of surprised they wanted an owner disassembling things.
That's disappointing. I have found AS support to be hit and miss. You have to get to the right person as the front line CS is not the best.
This characterization is misleading. This does not factor in the fact that my prior system (Martin-Logan Prodigys, VTL MB-750s, Aesthetix Io, VPI TNT Mk. IV, Graham 2.2, Benz Ruby 2, Transparent cables, ASC TubeTraps) was completely unchanged (static continuously) for 18 years.
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after 4 months what caused you to respond now?
since you joined WBF 10 years ago i've only observed you pursuing new gear for a new system, then 3 years ago you moved into your remodeled place and made many changes and rotated lots of gear through it, moved the speakers around, and tried various acoustical treatments. for these past 10 years you have gone far and wide to investigate many alternatives. it seems like you are having fun so it's all good, but so far from my seat through last May system stability has not been part of your picture.
which has nothing to do with your previous 18 years to my first encounter with you. and agree that that is very stable.
It’s sad that you keep denying your box swapping tendencies and also look down negatively on that trait. That’s quite a high example of denial and/or intellectual dishonesty
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Your Honor, I’ve been stopping at red lights faithfully for sixty years. Surely, after a lifetime of obedience, you can forgive me this one mistake.
Hi,
Why would you make that snarky assumption?
I listened to music on that system all those years. Joe Walsh heard music played on that system.
Wasn't snarky Ron.
Didn't your system sit in flux for a few years when you were building your new room?
I wish it were a new build of a new room, but it was just a superficial renovation of an existing room.
I sold the system I had for 18 years shortly before the repairs of the house commenced. So I didn't have any big stereo for the intervening years (the years while the house was being renovated). Just to be clear, the 18 years covered many years with the system in a dedicated bedroom in an apartment in Manhattan, and then the later years with the exact same system in my current house in the configuration you see in the photo.
I just joined the forum to post my initial experiences with the Klaudio KD-CLN-LP200T in combination with the KD-FLT-TAP02 tap water kit. I think there are a fair number of reviews of the LP200T and its predecessors already, but I didn't come across anyone using the tap water kit.
In fact, the tap water kit doesn't even seem to be compatible with the 200T out of the box (despite what it says on the product page) and the manual only shows it being used with the 200S (which has different-sized connections). I almost wonder if I'm the first one to ever use it at all I contacted Klaudio to ask about it and got no response whatsoever. I also contacted Acoustic Sounds, and they just sent me a link to the manual and suggested I contact Klaudio. I eventually figured out a workaround on my own by buying some extra adapters and tubing.
Initially I hesitated to buy the 200T because you're not supposed to use distilled water -- not to mention any cleaning agents or surfactants. I actually got all the recommended stuff in Neil Antin's PACVR guide, figuring I could use his method to pre-clean records and then use the Klaudio as a final rinse and dry in cases where the Klaudio itself didn't do a good enough job.
The thing that convinced me to get the Klaudio was the tap water kit. I didn't like the idea of starting with tap water (or even bottled drinking water) and then reusing that water many times over -- even with filtration. I also didn't have a good space to accomodate both the cleaner and the reservoir in the proper positions for pumping and draining to work. However I did have a space in my laundry room with a cold water supply from a sink and a drain in the floor that were perfect for the tap water kit. That allows for a lot more flexibility in placement, requires a lot less space, eliminates all the hassle of filling and draining the reservoir, etc.
Most importantly, the tap water kit gives you a constant supply of fresh filtered water. My tap water is pretty clean at 30ppm TDS, but the filter claims to do additional mineral filtration. It's a $15 replacement filter versus $10 for the standard reservoir, so I'm not sure if the standard external reservoir does the same mineral filtration.
For some reason I assumed the way the tap water kit would work is that it would fill up the machine, clean the record, and then drain all the water for each cleaning cycle. What it actually does is continually draw fresh water from the tap, filter it, and drain dirty water during the entire cleaning cycle. I liken it to taking a shower versus a bath. In a shower you are constantly being washed with clean water and the dirty water runs down the drain. In a bath you may always start with clean water, but that water immediately becomes dirty and then you're soaking in the dirty water for the rest of the bath.
So as of now I'm very happy with the setup. The build quality is fantastic (I thought my Degritter was good but the Klaudio is next-level). The convenience of having it plumbed straight into my water supply and drain is really nice, along with the benefits of having a constant supply of filtered clean water being used to wash the records. I can't say I'm very happy with Klaudio or Acoustic Sounds support (or lack thereof), but it wasn't too hard to figure out what to buy to adapt the supplied tubing and connectors. Hopefully I can get better support if the thing ever breaks and needs service that I can't do myself.
--
Steve
In fact, the tap water kit doesn't even seem to be compatible with the 200T out of the box (despite what it says on the product page) and the manual only shows it being used with the 200S (which has different-sized connections). I almost wonder if I'm the first one to ever use it at all
I contacted Klaudio to ask about it and got no response whatsoever. I also contacted Acoustic Sounds, and they just sent me a link to the manual and suggested I contact Klaudio. I eventually figured out a workaround on my own by buying some extra adapters and tubing.Initially I hesitated to buy the 200T because you're not supposed to use distilled water -- not to mention any cleaning agents or surfactants. I actually got all the recommended stuff in Neil Antin's PACVR guide, figuring I could use his method to pre-clean records and then use the Klaudio as a final rinse and dry in cases where the Klaudio itself didn't do a good enough job.
The thing that convinced me to get the Klaudio was the tap water kit. I didn't like the idea of starting with tap water (or even bottled drinking water) and then reusing that water many times over -- even with filtration. I also didn't have a good space to accomodate both the cleaner and the reservoir in the proper positions for pumping and draining to work. However I did have a space in my laundry room with a cold water supply from a sink and a drain in the floor that were perfect for the tap water kit. That allows for a lot more flexibility in placement, requires a lot less space, eliminates all the hassle of filling and draining the reservoir, etc.
Most importantly, the tap water kit gives you a constant supply of fresh filtered water. My tap water is pretty clean at 30ppm TDS, but the filter claims to do additional mineral filtration. It's a $15 replacement filter versus $10 for the standard reservoir, so I'm not sure if the standard external reservoir does the same mineral filtration.
For some reason I assumed the way the tap water kit would work is that it would fill up the machine, clean the record, and then drain all the water for each cleaning cycle. What it actually does is continually draw fresh water from the tap, filter it, and drain dirty water during the entire cleaning cycle. I liken it to taking a shower versus a bath. In a shower you are constantly being washed with clean water and the dirty water runs down the drain. In a bath you may always start with clean water, but that water immediately becomes dirty and then you're soaking in the dirty water for the rest of the bath.
So as of now I'm very happy with the setup. The build quality is fantastic (I thought my Degritter was good but the Klaudio is next-level). The convenience of having it plumbed straight into my water supply and drain is really nice, along with the benefits of having a constant supply of filtered clean water being used to wash the records. I can't say I'm very happy with Klaudio or Acoustic Sounds support (or lack thereof), but it wasn't too hard to figure out what to buy to adapt the supplied tubing and connectors. Hopefully I can get better support if the thing ever breaks and needs service that I can't do myself.
--
Steve
Unfortunately I don’t think Klaudio responds to emails. I asked them a simple question years ago when I had my first unit and no response. A big difference compared to Degritter.I just joined the forum to post my initial experiences with the Klaudio KD-CLN-LP200T in combination with the KD-FLT-TAP02 tap water kit. I think there are a fair number of reviews of the LP200T and its predecessors already, but I didn't come across anyone using the tap water kit.
In fact, the tap water kit doesn't even seem to be compatible with the 200T out of the box (despite what it says on the product page) and the manual only shows it being used with the 200S (which has different-sized connections). I almost wonder if I'm the first one to ever use it at all
Initially I hesitated to buy the 200T because you're not supposed to use distilled water -- not to mention any cleaning agents or surfactants. I actually got all the recommended stuff in Neil Antin's PACVR guide, figuring I could use his method to pre-clean records and then use the Klaudio as a final rinse and dry in cases where the Klaudio itself didn't do a good enough job.
The thing that convinced me to get the Klaudio was the tap water kit. I didn't like the idea of starting with tap water (or even bottled drinking water) and then reusing that water many times over -- even with filtration. I also didn't have a good space to accomodate both the cleaner and the reservoir in the proper positions for pumping and draining to work. However I did have a space in my laundry room with a cold water supply from a sink and a drain in the floor that were perfect for the tap water kit. That allows for a lot more flexibility in placement, requires a lot less space, eliminates all the hassle of filling and draining the reservoir, etc.
Most importantly, the tap water kit gives you a constant supply of fresh filtered water. My tap water is pretty clean at 30ppm TDS, but the filter claims to do additional mineral filtration. It's a $15 replacement filter versus $10 for the standard reservoir, so I'm not sure if the standard external reservoir does the same mineral filtration.
For some reason I assumed the way the tap water kit would work is that it would fill up the machine, clean the record, and then drain all the water for each cleaning cycle. What it actually does is continually draw fresh water from the tap, filter it, and drain dirty water during the entire cleaning cycle. I liken it to taking a shower versus a bath. In a shower you are constantly being washed with clean water and the dirty water runs down the drain. In a bath you may always start with clean water, but that water immediately becomes dirty and then you're soaking in the dirty water for the rest of the bath.
So as of now I'm very happy with the setup. The build quality is fantastic (I thought my Degritter was good but the Klaudio is next-level). The convenience of having it plumbed straight into my water supply and drain is really nice, along with the benefits of having a constant supply of filtered clean water being used to wash the records. I can't say I'm very happy with Klaudio or Acoustic Sounds support (or lack thereof), but it wasn't too hard to figure out what to buy to adapt the supplied tubing and connectors. Hopefully I can get better support if the thing ever breaks and needs service that I can't do myself.
--
Steve
Do you know what the final ppm is after the filter? 30 seems really high (I replace distilled at 3ppm).
30 is much higher than distilled but pretty good for tap water I think. I use reverse osmosis for my drinking water and that is currently reading 3.9.
The way I think about it, I'd rather have 30ppm water that's completely fresh and continuously replaced during the cleaning cycle than 3ppm water that's been recycled over and over (just like I'd rather take a shower in tap water than bathe in distilled water). Also not all contaminants are detected by a TDS meter.
I'll try to get a reading of the filtered water when I get a chance. It's a little tricky because I'll have to disconnect the output of the filter and capture it while there's a record in the machine or else the water won't flow. I'm also not sure if the reading for my water post-filtration will be applicable to anyone else's water.
Tested my tap water at 29.6. I still wonder how being 10x worse than even end of life distilled is a good thing. We need @Neil.Antin on this one.
According to Neil's guide, anything up to 500 ppm is within the EPA drinking water standards and suitable for everything up to the final rinse.
Anything up to 10 ppm falls into the "pure water" category and is suitable for the final rinse of "general high-pressure oxygen system components" in MIL-STD-1330D. The requirements go up from there to <1.25 ppm for "critical high-pressure oxygen and life support system components" and <0.028 ppm for "extreme precision cleaning of semi-conductors." So when you replace your water at 3ppm you're already over 100x dirtier than what's allowed if you wanted to be at that semi-conductor level of clean
There's also Table VII which is meant to apply specifically to records. It shows that there's a relationship between the water purity and how much water can be allowed to dry on the record without an undesirable level of residue. It seems to indicate that even 100 ppm is acceptable if no more than 2 mL is allowed to dry on the record. By interpolating the chart I believe at least 6 mL would be acceptable at 30 ppm. I wonder how much water dries on the record with the Klaudio since I assume that any water that's blown off in the drying process doesn't count versus water that evaporates in place. A full eye dropper is only about 1 mL so even 2 mL is a fair bit of water to let evaporate on the record let alone 6 mL.
I saw in previous posts Neil says to replace water when it’s at 5-10ppm if it started at less than 1ppm. I’m at the end of my bulk cleaning so only need to do whatever I buy now. Even with replacing at 3-3.5ppm I can do a lot of records and it’s spread over a longer time. Feels right to replace it before it sits in the tank too long. I guess you notice no difference with tap or distilled? I wonder if the inside of your machine is going to look like an old shower head at some point?
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