KLAudio returns - new KD-CLN-LP200T RCM

[tima]

10 years from now is when you can look back to say when stuff actually settled down and were set......for 3-4 years in a row. where changing is no longer a thought.

It is an interesting phenomena -- how do you know when you're satisfied. How do you know when you're done? Ron said

I'll know it when I hear it.

Presumably one 'hears it' when making a change or when making a substantial improvement. Presumably Ron knew or at least thought he did when he bought those fancy Gryphon speakers. Now he's salvaging that purchase by using their bass towers. Not trying to pick on him -- he's just a near at hand example of the phenomenon..

How confident are we with our confidence that 'this is it'. Maybe we can only assess that as you intimate, by waiting several years.

Can we know it when we hear it if we don't truly know what we want? Saying "I want better sound" is simply not enough, imo. I'm thinking that knowing what you want needs to start with music, real music, not a list of audiophile adjectives.

 

[howiebrou]

It is an interesting phenomena -- how do you know when you're satisfied. How do you know when you're done? Ron said


Presumably one 'hears it' when making a change or when making a substantial improvement. Presumably Ron knew or at least thought he did when he bought those fancy Gryphon speakers. Now he's salvaging that purchase by using their bass towers. Not trying to pick on him -- he's just a near at hand example of the phenomenon..

How confident are we with our confidence that 'this is it'. Maybe we can only assess that as you intimate, by waiting several years.

Can we know it when we hear it if we don't truly know what we want? Saying "I want better sound" is simply not enough, imo. I'm thinking that knowing what you want needs to start with music, real music, not a list of audiophile adjectives.

We know that "this is it" when we get plenty of thumbs ups on forums.

 

[thedudeabides]

It is an interesting phenomena -- how do you know when you're satisfied. How do you know when you're done?

Pretty simple I believe. Regardless of the sophistication of the system, it's when you no longer listen to the gear and only hear the music. Goes without saying that for the typical hard core OCD audiophile, that is a difficult if not impossible mindset to fully realize and comfortably accept.

 

[tima]

Pretty simple I believe. Regardless of the sophistication of the system, it's when you no longer listen to the gear and only hear the music. Goes without saying that for the typical hard core OCD audiophile, that is a difficult if not impossible mindset to fully realize and comfortably accept.

It may be something like that.

I consider myself done though I'll probably try a few different cartridges along the way. I've always thought music is the end goal and a system is a means to that -- maybe that means I've moved beyond the "typical hard core OCD audiophile" phase or was never fully there. Today my overall result is thoroughly satisfying. I will continue to appreciate the gear. The room may be its weakness to some degree but I have no interest in pasteing up a bunch of acoustic treatments. It feels good to be done.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron

At least you still have your same 20 albums to play over and over

To be an influencer his number of boxes swapped needs to exceed number of albums. Should be close or already past

 

[bonzo75]

A different speaker, different preamps) , few different cartridges, tonearms, a different valve amplifier, trial with a 100w triode, SS amp, biamping attempts, room acoutic expeiments, is a lot for me, for sure.

corrected

 

[XV-1]

To be an influencer his number of boxes swapped needs to exceed number of albums. Should be close or already past

Ron, the true 20 album audiophile

 

[Neil.Antin]

I have not seen the info on the SH forum. Wrt stylus wear, a few years back Mike Bodell published an extensive paper on that topic on Bill Hart's site The Vinyl Press

Tim:

I am aware of the Mike Bodell paper. Here are two recent SH posts of some of the current recent work with Ray Parkhurst doing most of work since he has the macrophotography setup for the extreme magnification.

Sumiko Blue Point Special with 3700 hours

A forum member sent me a Sumiko BPS with logged 3700 hours of play (!!). I have been asking for such a cartridge with known high hours for some time,...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

SWSA, Stylus Wear Study A

I'm starting a new study to determine how much damage is done to a record groove by repeated plays. This data is needed so we can set a target number...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

There is also a long thread at the VinylEngine where Ray is providing updates.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=134294

An interesting observation (by measurements) is that excessive stylus wear can result in the stylus geometry narrowing enough to drop so far into the groove that it finally bottoms-out.

Take care,
Neil

 

[bonzo75]

I have not seen the info on the SH forum. Wrt stylus wear, a few years back Mike Bodell published an extensive paper on that topic on Bill Hart's site The Vinyl Press

The Finish Line for Your Phonograph Stylus… - The Vinyl Press

Examining the critical issue of phono stylus wear as it pertains to useful life and the potential for damage to records.

thevinylpress.com

Great read

 

[Zeotrope]

When we compared KL and Audiodesk, the venue ambience was there more on AD and lost on KL. the compares were all on good quality classical. We did many LPs, and the randomised the order. Some were cleaned on AD first and listened, then KL second and heard again. Some the other way round. This was done on two visits. Regardless, both my friend and I preferred the AD. The KL makes the LP sound quiet, but loses the venue ambience. Is that just the high frequency loss your friend is talking about? I don’t know. In Fremer’s review, he heard the KL but kept the AD

Where are you getting this? In fact it’s the opposite: Fremer kept the KL Audio 200 cleaning machine and proclaimed it’s superior to the AD!

 

[bonzo75]

Where are you getting this? In fact it’s the opposite: Fremer kept the KL Audio 200 cleaning machine and proclaimed it’s superior to the AD!

“In my world competition is a good thing! It can only lead to better products from all concerned. Clearly no one who owns an Audio Desk (and that include me) need replace it with the KLAUDiO unit”

KLAUDiO KD-CLN-LP200 Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machine Reviewed

The success of the Audio Desk Systems’ ultrasonic record cleaning machine made it inevitable that others would follow. A few have since been marketed that use existing technology and hardware such as David Ratcliff’s V-8, a stainless steel vat that can clean but not dry eight records...

www.analogplanet.com

 

[Zeotrope]

I owned an AD and replaced it with a DeGritter. I prefer the DeGritter.

 

[Hydrology]

Even "if' the AD was proven to be better at its task than the KLAudio, I could never switch over to an AD - their lack of easy/any repairability kills any interest in them.

 

[tima]

“In my world competition is a good thing! It can only lead to better products from all concerned. Clearly no one who owns an Audio Desk (and that include me) need replace it with the KLAUDiO unit”

KLAUDiO KD-CLN-LP200 Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machine Reviewed

The success of the Audio Desk Systems’ ultrasonic record cleaning machine made it inevitable that others would follow. A few have since been marketed that use existing technology and hardware such as David Ratcliff’s V-8, a stainless steel vat that can clean but not dry eight records...

www.analogplanet.com

Fwiw, that review is from 2013. The Degritter wasn't even on the market yet. My point being there is new information, new products and product updates. Imo he is not the go-to guy on record cleaners or cleaning technology although it is a positive that he gives them exposure.

It's been a while since I owned an AudioDesk. I suspect it is still a viable product now that the build quality kinks are worked out. All of the desktop machines have various limitations -- I could run through them and probably have already, just need to find the post. All are very dificult to clean internally.

I think it is safe to say all ultrasonics are consumables -- over time their metal tanks wear out where the transducers are fastened to the tank. You can see the wear as lighter colored metal if you can see where the attachment points are. That is a function of how much they get used and the quality of the stainless steel used to make them.

 

[bonzo75]

Fwiw, that review is from 2013. The Degritter wasn't even on the market yet. My point being there is new information, new products and product updates. Imo he is not the go-to guy on record cleaners or cleaning technology although it is a positive that he gives them exposure.

I was answering Zeotrope’s query about KL vs Audiodesk review from Fremer. Since you brought up Degritter, his review from 2020 says this “I'll review the PRO X soon, but given the Degritter's host of features and its operating system and the fact that it doesn't include applicator rollers that cost $99 a set to replace, can the extra $1000 be justified? I don't have an answer. If you already own an Audiodesk that works, I don't see any reason to replace it.”

Separately as mentioned on the thread, av forms of mine and I compared KL and AD, but I have never compared D myself so I cannot comment

 

[Zeotrope]

I was answering Zeotrope’s query about KL vs Audiodesk review from Fremer. Since you brought up Degritter, his review from 2020 says this “I'll review the PRO X soon, but given the Degritter's host of features and its operating system and the fact that it doesn't include applicator rollers that cost $99 a set to replace, can the extra $1000 be justified? I don't have an answer. If you already own an Audiodesk that works, I don't see any reason to replace it.”

Separately as mentioned on the thread, av forms of mine and I compared KL and AD, but I have never compared D myself so I cannot comment

In the latest video on Tracking Angle, Fremer comments that he is using the KL machine. Fremer also commented a few years ago that he cannot review the DeGritter because he is having some type of spat with the US importer. Remember that Fremer — and no reviewers for that matter — only review products that they are authorized to review.
I once pointed Fremer to the AFI vinyl flattener, he wouldn’t touch it, even though the manufacturer wanted to give him one for free. He said he couldn’t review it until he has a deal with the US importer.

Anyway, FWIW, Fremer is using the KL. He dropped the AD a while ago because it’s not an ultrasonic. Again, FWIW!

 

[bonzo75]

In the latest video on Tracking Angle, Fremer comments that he is using the KL machine. Fremer also commented a few years ago that he cannot review the DeGritter because he is having some type of spat with the US importer. Remember that Fremer — and no reviewers for that matter — only review products that they are authorized to review.
I once pointed Fremer to the AFI vinyl flattener, he wouldn’t touch it, even though the manufacturer wanted to give him one for free. He said he couldn’t review it until he has a deal with the US importer.

Anyway, FWIW, Fremer is using the KL. He dropped the AD a while ago because it’s not an ultrasonic. Again, FWIW!

Must have changed later. He has written a review of the Degritter on analog planet in 2020

 

[Zeotrope]

Yes, indeed. Personally, I use a DeGritter Mark 1. I don’t see the need to upgrade to the Mark 2 or to the KL Audio, especially for the cost.
The new DeGritter looks interesting, especially since it will incorporate rollers as well. But it’s big and will probably be close to $10k…

 

[djsina2]

I’ve had LP200 -> Degritter mk1 -> LP200T. I would not suggest the LP200 due to the limitations with cleaning the tank and having no filter. The Degritter and LP200T are at least comparable but I do prefer the LP200T due to ease of use, even though it’s incredibly loud (wear ear plugs if in the same room).

 

[Zeotrope]

I’ve had LP200 -> Degritter mk1 -> LP200T. I would not suggest the LP200 due to the limitations with cleaning the tank and having no filter. The Degritter and LP200T are at least comparable but I do prefer the LP200T due to ease of use, even though it’s incredibly loud (wear ear plugs if in the same room).

Would you say the 200T cleans better than the DeGritter Mk 1?
In my case, I no longer buy used records, so I am only really cleaning new vinyl.