Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Kingrex]

The only reason why I can remember the name of my car, that I rarely drive, is because it has the same name as my streamer. The car is a Nissan Pulsar and the streamer an Innuos Pulsar. On the used market, the streamer is worth more than the car.
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My wife has a nice Hyundai EV. Here in the UK we get a 100% business deduction for new or ex-demo EV's. I bought it ex-demo, or at least my business did.

I'm interested in the EV Macan. But you have to get at a minimum the S model. Otherwise its a turd to drive. And I am a little hesitant on getting a used EV. You can damage a battery if you don't treat it right.
I drive my cars. Even if they were to announce the new water powered motors were going into production in 10 Years, effectively killing the EV market and all highway infrastructure, I would not care as I usually drive my cars to the end. I would continue to use the EV for all my city driving and I still have a petroleum vehicle for any distance driving.
I was thinking of putting a solar array on the roof and a couple battery packs on the wall in the garage. That way I can power the car with solar and not have to tie to the grid. I wish the US would allow direct solar to EV car chargers. They want to force you to tie to the grid so they can take your power when they need it. They only way around it is to go to a battery to store the power. The chargers in the US are no smart enough to look at a solar array and understand there is fluctuating energy density. They expect to see the grid and take what they want. You need a pretty robust battery bank that acts like a grid and is large enough to fill the whole of the cars needs.
I do have some ability to source used Lithium cells. There are bricks of them for sale from damaged vehicles that are parted out. You just have to know how to wire them together to create a bank. As well as knowing how to wire in a battery management system. That is the brains that keep them from lighting on fire.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would stay far away from any “lease return”.

the truth (for the USA at least and most of Western Europe).

lease returns are actually a solid choice. customers are contractually required to do maintenance. miles are limited due to the penalties. repairs require original factory parts. and mostly these are financially more qualified buyers so less likely to be careless with their vehicle. they have to have all the insurance. and they are more likely repeat customers of the dealership. most lease returns become factory 'Certified' Used from a new car dealer; which is a very good way to go. the manufacturers hold the dealers very accountable for the condition and the factory warranty is extended. the factory field staff actually looks them over. they cannot 'Certify' a vehicle that has had serious body work (typically more than one panel).

our most loyal customers were those buying lease returned 'Certified' used. especially with the COVID price bumps for new these units became our most popular entry level vehicles for the Honda brand.

don't confuse factory 'Certified' with some odd dealer's micky mouse certified program which is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[Iamrael]

The way I understand it, if a dealer (Porsche, Mercedes, BMW etc) gets a lease back and they feel the car is in excellent shape, they will sell it. It usually gets an additional 2 year manufacturer warranty.
If they feel the car has issues, they sell it to Joes Used Cars on Junk street. I only purchase from dealers. As in, I go to a Porsche dealer and look at what they have in there used stock. I do not shop from Joe. This is how I got my last Porsche and Mercedes. I have had both for over 12 years with no major issue.

I never purchase new. I'm not that rich. I only have so many millions in the bank. They have to last.
Why would you not purchase a Lease return. There are a lot of people that don't buy out the lease. And I don't see then doing anything to mistreat the vehicle. If it comes back damaged, they ding you on the return. So they come back clean. And I think Lease come with services so the dealer knows they are getting done. Could be wrong on the service side. Anyhow, I have had good luck that way.

A lot depends on the car. If you’re looking at a Porsche, AMG, BMW M or the likes, often (not always) these lease returns have been abused by the previous driver.
Of course dealers will show records of proper service /maintenance, etc. but many have been raced at the track, modified (then unmodified before returning to dealer) engine computer hacks, not allowed sufficient break in before hard drive, or simply not warming up the engine fluids before high revs on daily driving.
These things can be problematic (or not) but performance can be compromised without something being broke.
This is all said without consideration to price as we all know first three years on these cars is the worst for depreciation.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A lot depends on the car. If you’re looking at a Porsche, AMG, BMW M or the likes, often (not always) these lease returns have been abused by the previous driver.
Of course dealers will show records of proper service /maintenance, etc. but many have been raced at the track, modified (then unmodified before returning to dealer) engine computer hacks, not allowed sufficient break in before hard drive, or simply not warming up the engine fluids before high revs on daily driving.
These things can be problematic (or not) but performance can be compromised without something being broke.

actual lease rates and terms on those models you list are highly restrictive with heavy penalties for abuse. payments are considerable and miles are very limited. zero mods allowed. and those buyers will have something to lose in the process. people get sued and lose all the time when they think they can slide. manufacturers are not ignorant. not saying stupid people cannot do stupid things. but just buy the lease return 'Certified' and you are covered if it turns out to be an issue.

OTOH if the dealer cannot certify it THAT will raise a red flag.

i managed a lease portfolio for 30 years with 200-250 units in it. this was my business.

 

[exupgh12]

Audio equipment can be very expensive. some amplifiers cost as much as cars. DACs and turntables can cost as much as small homes. even cables can cost thousands.

Most people get excellent sound from equipment costing $5,000-10,000. more expensive gear might only be worth it for serious music lovers who also have the money, space, time, and ears to appreciate the small differences.

 

[microstrip]

Audio equipment can be very expensive. some amplifiers cost as much as cars. DACs and turntables can cost as much as small homes. even cables can cost thousands.

Most people get excellent sound from equipment costing $5,000-10,000. more expensive gear might only be worth it for serious music lovers who also have the money, space, time, and ears to appreciate the small differences.

Why being a "serious music lover" is mandatory for being an audiophile? Or better, what is a "serious music lover"? Some one that only listens to non amplified music?

 

[Atmasphere]

Why being a "serious music lover" is mandatory for being an audiophile? Or better, what is a "serious music lover"? Some one that only listens to non amplified music?

Music lovers in my experience seem to value their music library over the audio system. That might be true of me- I'm still broken hearted about two boxes of LPs stolen at CES 20 years ago when we were packing up after the show. Some of those LPs I've not been able to replace. If my stereo were stolen I'd be upset, more that they invaded my space, but it would not be hard to put together a nice system again.

 

[exupgh12]

Why being a "serious music lover" is mandatory for being an audiophile? Or better, what is a "serious music lover"? Some one that only listens to non amplified music?

Otherwise, there's no point in investing 100K+ dollars on an audio system. If you only listen to music once in a while, or just when you're showering, I guess you can experience the joy of music for far less.

Yes, one can do whatever they like with their disposable income, but there are lots of alternative ways to spend your hard-earned money.

 

[microstrip]

Otherwise, there's no point in investing 100K+ dollars on an audio system. If you only listen to music once in a while, or just when you're showering, I guess you can experience the joy of music for far less.

Yes, one can do whatever they like with their disposable income, but there are lots of alternative ways to spend your hard-earned money.

Ok, you were addressing frequency and dedicated listening - we can easily agree on it. We could say habitual listeners.

 

[Al M.]

Or better, what is a "serious music lover"? Some one that only listens to non amplified music?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Otherwise, there's no point in investing 100K+ dollars on an audio system. If you only listen to music once in a while, or just when you're showering, I guess you can experience the joy of music for far less.

Yes, one can do whatever they like with their disposable income, but there are lots of alternative ways to spend your hard-earned money.

i am a serious music lover. by any way you want to qualify it.

yet i also feel that there are no rules for what justifies owning a nice, expensive, hifi system. you can have 20 demo cuts you play only once in a while to hear how it sounds, or many thousands of pieces of hard media and all the streaming services and play music all the time and have great knowledge. and all points in between. or just streaming and own zero media.

some of us just enjoy having a nice system and the idea of the hobby. maybe they are into the gear for it's own sake. i have very serious audiophile friends who like to build gear but don't listen that much. or mostly just collect old gear. it's all good.

and some don't have any system but a passion for the hobby and music. that's fine too.

 

[microstrip]

Music lovers in my experience seem to value their music library over the audio system.

Well, currently streaming questions your defiintion ...

That might be true of me- I'm still broken hearted about two boxes of LPs stolen at CES 20 years ago when we were packing up after the show. Some of those LPs I've not been able to replace. If my stereo were stolen I'd be upset, more that they invaded my space, but it would not be hard to put together a nice system again.

Well, up to a few years ago I was very attached to my LPs . I would suffer if I scratched or damaged any of them. But once I found I really enjoyed better listening to most of them in digital format I sold most of them too cheap to an envious audiophile friend who listens only to vinyl. But jazz and nostalgia forced me to keep about eight hundred LPs.

 

[DaveC]

A lot depends on the car. If you’re looking at a Porsche, AMG, BMW M or the likes, often (not always) these lease returns have been abused by the previous driver.
Of course dealers will show records of proper service /maintenance, etc. but many have been raced at the track, modified (then unmodified before returning to dealer) engine computer hacks, not allowed sufficient break in before hard drive, or simply not warming up the engine fluids before high revs on daily driving.
These things can be problematic (or not) but performance can be compromised without something being broke.
This is all said without consideration to price as we all know first three years on these cars is the worst for depreciation.

Buying a used sports/track car is more of a gamble, even if it's properly maintained track miles put a lot more wear on the car, probably by 10x or more. And with a manual there's more chance of overrev. Some brands like Porsche record overrevs on the ECU but you have to know the info is there and usually ask for it. And people definitely do modify then de-modify sports cars to put them up for sale, it's extremely common.

For basic or luxury cars the chances of abuse are FAR less, if the leasee took care of the exterior I'm much more likely to think the vehicle wasn't abused in general.

However, I think modern luxury cars and high end utility vehicles are a waste of cash and I won't buy cars that will massively depreciate either, so I always buy new.

 

[exupgh12]

i am a serious music lover. by any way you want to qualify it.

yet i also feel that there are no rules for what justifies owning a nice, expensive, hifi system. you can have 20 demo cuts you play only once in a while to hear how it sounds, or many thousands of pieces of hard media and all the streaming services and play music all the time and have great knowledge. and all points in between. or just streaming and own zero media.

some of us just enjoy having a nice system and the idea of the hobby. maybe they are into the gear for it's own sake. i have very serious audiophile friends who like to build gear but don't listen that much. or mostly just collect old gear. it's all good.

and some don't have any system but a passion for the hobby and music. that's fine too.

Mike,

I respect your perspective—and I agree, there really are no strict rules in this hobby.
different people come with different motivations to this hobby.

My point was less about judging how others spend their money, and more about the connection between usage and value—especially when it comes to appreciating what high-end systems are capable of. But you're absolutely right: for some, the joy comes from the gear itself

 

[Iamrael]

Buying a used sports/track car is more of a gamble, even if it's properly maintained track miles put a lot more wear on the car, probably by 10x or more. And with a manual there's more chance of overrev. Some brands like Porsche record overrevs on the ECU but you have to know the info is there and usually ask for it. And people definitely do modify then de-modify sports cars to put them up for sale, it's extremely common.

For basic or luxury cars the chances of abuse are FAR less, if the leasee took care of the exterior I'm much more likely to think the vehicle wasn't abused in general.

However, I think modern luxury cars and high end utility vehicles are a waste of cash and I won't buy cars that will massively depreciate either, so I always buy new.

You said it better than me, but I’ll add that imo people tend to treat a leased vehicle (knowing it will be out of their hands at lease end) with less respect than they would one that was a straight purchase.

 

[microstrip]

(...) But you're absolutely right: for some, the joy comes from the gear itself

I would be more careful - also from the sound of the gear. We often address the disbelief suppression - I know people that, although they are not music lovers - they will never listen to a complete album - want to get particularly this feeling of being carried to a place where there are no speakers or system. They mostly want to escape ...

 

[Elliot G.]

You said it better than me, but I’ll add that imo people tend to treat a leased vehicle (knowing it will be out of their hands at lease end) with less respect than they would one that was a straight purchase.

they only get to do that once since the lessee's are responsible for all damage and excess wear and tear,. There is a big difference between leasing and a rental. On rentals yes people don't care at all

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have been on a couple of "nights out" with engineers discussing the finer points of braking, accelerating, shifting and suspension, which they gleefully demonstrated with our rental car by driving up/over curbs, executing hand-brake skids and bootleg turns, and high-rev downshifts. No rental car purchases for me.

 

[A-Line]

My music collection of records, tape, and CD's cost more than my 2 music systems that I play them back on. I've spent probably around $90K on my 2 setups, my music collection I spent about twice as much on it.

Decent entry level system, depending upon which type of playback device is used, can range $5-7K for a very basic setup. Some are happy at this level, others are far from being done and will spend considerably more money, time, and effort into getting the sound just so..

Hifi listening as a hobby is a very small one. Not as many people these days as in decades before. The cost of entry isn't staggering but it's still a hobby for the well to do just as before.
I've another hobby of amateur astronomy. Not nearly as expensive as hifi but like most other hobbies it will cost money to get into and to maintain.

 

[ssfas]

i am a serious music lover. by any way you want to qualify it.

yet i also feel that there are no rules for what justifies owning a nice, expensive, hifi system. you can have 20 demo cuts you play only once in a while to hear how it sounds, or many thousands of pieces of hard media and all the streaming services and play music all the time and have great knowledge. and all points in between. or just streaming and own zero media.

some of us just enjoy having a nice system and the idea of the hobby. maybe they are into the gear for it's own sake. i have very serious audiophile friends who like to build gear but don't listen that much. or mostly just collect old gear. it's all good.

and some don't have any system but a passion for the hobby and music. that's fine too.

I'm sure there are lots of people who are mostly in it for the gear, but would rather not admit it.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with that, hobbies are basically the self-indulgent use of surplus disposable income.