Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Al M.]

As to whether high end Audi gear is worth the money, in the end the answer to this question will come down to meaning.

How much does it mean to have a viscerally impactful and at the same time transparent presentation of the music that you love? A presentation that, while obviously it will never replicate it, to some extent is reminiscent of a concert experience, in tone, presence and dynamics?

To me it means a lot, so to me my investment is worth it.

 

[ssfas]

My reply here is not about audio per se but more about intellectual, social and cultural curiosity. What might appear to be that on the surface is simply glamming on to these ideals as presented to them via social media. Here in the U.S. I think you are 1000% wrong. Kids and young adults consume a majority of their information via social media and then comfortably reside in whatever rabbit hole they find themselves. This leads to an absolute truncation of their growth and development. They don’t challenge their beliefs or the beliefs of those they identify with. Look at our politics. Both sides. They have little actual experiential knowledge. They don’t play physically. Their friends are people they never met. Just people they play video games with. Birds, trees boring. 4-6 hours/ playing video games. They don’t interact socially (in the flesh) and often don’t even know the names of their schoolmates. Watch them sit next to each other and never look up from their devices. By the time they enter the workforce they can’t handle any conflict and while outwardly pleasant they rarely consider others unless of course they think their actions might lead to social media backlash. He was not being condescending he was being charitable. Of course there are some great kids out there. I’m sure people will chime in with examples but across the board we are raising a generation of people with largely false fixed beliefs with little or no actual experience to support these beliefs.

That all sounds very sad. I hope it's not universally true.

I have two boys who are completely different, both highly sociable with many real friends. They are both graduates with good jobs. My elder son has never played a video game. We never had a game console in the house. My younger one occasionally plays FIFA with real live friends on a TV. They don't waste their lives on social media. They play and watch sport, one loves painting (oils, acrylics), they both read a lot. One studied politics and history at university, the other has zero interest in politics. One is religious, the other an atheist. They both travel a lot. I wish I still had their level of intellectual and cultural curiosity. The friends of theirs that I know are similarly well adjusted in their own ways.

I was speaking to a friend in Chicago a while back who was telling me that he drove his kids to school every day until they were about 18. I think my kids were taking the bus to and from school from the age of about 10. They were going to music festivals independently from the age of 15. When my son was 18 he and his girlfriend travelled around Cuba for a month. When they were 21 they did 8 weeks and 6,000 miles around China without getting on a plane. America is big and there seems to be a public safety issue, especially with kids. Here in the UK and around much of Europe it just isn't an issue at all. Maybe that has something to do with it. Plus you don't need a car here. Neither of my kids drive.

 

[PYP]

I prefer something with curves...

 

[Ron Resnick]

My dad’s 78— . . . still goes out clubbing.

A real club, or the back of Applebee's on '60s throwback night?

The Groucho Marx joke about being a member of a club comes to mind. I wouldn't want to go clubbing at any club that admits 78 year olds.

 

[exupgh12]

My interest in music started as a teenager. I've always had a hifi, but for years it hardly got used. Without a good acoustic I think quality kit would be a waste of money. I only spent proper money when it was worthwhile, and I now have a dedicated room with excellent acoustics. I went to a lot of demo's of hifi, from modest to $1m+ systems, as much to get reference points. The attendees have been almost exclusively male and probably 45+, although I've not had the need to go to one for 4 or 5 years.

For me I wouldn't call hifi a hobby. I like music and now have the time and space to listen more at home. I have two friends with good hifi, but it is not a topic of conversation. I have only heard one of those systems, not the other one and I've known the guy for 11 years. Since we bought this house 28 years ago, 2 or 3 people have listened to my system for about 2 hours in total maximum.

We are still very active and social. We are members of at least a dozen Arts and music institutions in London. We were in Oxford last Sunday to see an exhibition of early works by Anselm Keifer at the Ashmolean Museum, and to have a long walk (about 5 hours). We have ballet and cultural trips booked to Paris and Copenhagen in the next month or two. They are 25,000 step days. My wife is abroad this week, so I'm having a Haruomi Hosono vinyl evening tonight, a long walk tomorrow and then going clubbing (Ronnie Scott's). Not dead yet.

I still don't know how anyone can think "Kids get excited by simple things".

Kids get excited about the simplest things—like bubbles, a new toy, or jumping in puddles. They don’t need anything big to feel happy. And honestly, we were the same when we got our first audio system, especially as teenagers. We were excited, totally happy with what we had, and didn’t even think about upgrading right away. But once you got your next system, it probably made you realize how basic that first one really was. If I swapped your current setup with that old system today, you probably wouldn’t enjoy it the way you did back then.

 

[exupgh12]

Huh? A real club, or the back of Applebee's on '60s throwback night?

In real clubs, the men love to enjoy life and are full of extraordinary energy and passion to life.

The Groucho Marx joke about being a member of a club comes to mind. I wouldn't want to go clubbing at any club that admits 78 year olds.

But then again, Groucho Marx never surfed

 

[Rensselaer]

Kids get excited about the simplest things—like bubbles, a new toy, or jumping in puddles. They don’t need anything big to feel happy. And honestly, we were the same when we got our first audio system, especially as teenagers. We were excited, totally happy with what we had, and didn’t even think about upgrading right away. But once you got your next system, it probably made you realize how basic that first one really was. If I swapped your current setup with that old system today, you probably wouldn’t enjoy it the way you did back then.

Read, Albert Camus: The Myth of Sisyphus . It’s all been said before.

 

[bonzo75]

We were excited, totally happy with what we had, and didn’t even think about upgrading right away. But once you got your next system, it probably made you realize how basic that first one really was.

And many therefore keep upgrading on similar principles/learnings of those initial impressions for decades, which is exactly what noob linearity is. At some point, you have to realise your initial system seemed basic due to what little you knew back then, and maybe you need to go off on a complete tangent to the upgrades you have been doing to get off that linear approach of “upgrading” based on what you previously owned (and knew). Otherwise, it is the equivalent of only being more educated than you were in kindergarten

 

[ssfas]

And many therefore keep upgrading on similar principles/learnings of those initial impressions for decades, which is exactly what noob linearity is. At some point, you have to realise your initial system seemed basic due to what little you knew back then, and maybe you need to go off on a complete tangent to the upgrades you have been doing to get off that linear approach of “upgrading” based on what you previously owned

After a small child experimented poking speaker drivers, for about 10 years my system was Dynaudio Contour 1.1 hung off the wall. When they grew up they (or one of their friends) burnt a hole in the fabric of a REL subwoofer with a joint. It was a joint as they are well brought up and if they or their friends had to smoke tobacco, they knew to smoke it in the garden.

So far as lateral thinking, having a morning coffee in my music room listening through my alternative system of 6 speakers in the ceiling. Massive Attack 100th Window. More immersive than stereo, less visceral thankfully. Sometimes I don’t want to be physically assaulted by the music. I have about 30 such speakers in the house, they are my main listening medium.

There are various Wellbeing modes, that combine different light settings and ambient sound depending on your mood. It may sound like turning your home into a shopping centre, but it’s very pleasant.

On the subject of clubbing, I went to a Massive Attack gig at the O2 Brixton maybe 5 years ago. It was very middle aged, people standing around chatting and drinking coffee, and I’m sure they turned down the sound level. One of my kids was there with some of his mates, they kept their distance for reasons I don’t understand.

 

[tima]

At some point, you have to realise your initial system seemed basic due to what little you knew back then, and maybe you need to go off on a complete tangent to the upgrades you have been doing to get off that linear approach of “upgrading” based on what you previously owned (and knew).

This not unlike what is a 'problem' for reviewers. They compare the new model to the previous model of the same component because that is all they have to use for the comparison. The problem is that few reviewers have access to something that offers sufficient contrast. I was faced with that in a few of my own reviews but not in all (Alexia -> Alexia2 vs. Alexia2 -> vonLanga Son). A solution is not to have the review done by someone only with the previous model. Of course some manufacturers prefer to go to the same well again when the reviewer liked the previous model; Wilson is an example here. And you don't find some reviewers making wholesale changes.

 

[bonzo75]

This not unlike what is a 'problem' for reviewers. They compare the new model to the previous model of the same component because that is all they have to use for the comparison. The problem is that few reviewers have access to something that offers sufficient contrast. I was faced with that in a few of my own reviews but not in all (Alexia -> Alexia2 vs. Alexia2 -> vonLanga Son). A solution is not to have the review done by someone only with the previous model. Of course some manufacturers prefer to go to the same well again when the reviewer liked the previous model; Wilson is an example here. And you don't find some reviewers making wholesale changes.

I think a related reviewer challenge is not having enough matching gear, if they want to do a variety of amps, speakers, and arm/cart combos. The challenge they have is to spend a lot of time figuring out what optimal set up and match is (which might never happen with their limited gear) only after which one can do justice to listening.

At least Roy has 3 rooms I think with varied gear. He should ask Fremer to come over and write the reviews for him.

 

[tima]

I think a related reviewer challenge is not having enough matching gear, if they want to do a variety of amps, speakers, and arm/cart combos. The challenge they have is to spend a lot of time figuring out what optimal set up and match is (which might never happen with their limited gear) only after which one can do justice to listening.

Happily for me, I don't have *that* problem. :-o

 

[bonzo75]

Happily for me, I don't have *that* problem. :-o

Do you still have the Wilson?

 

[tima]

Do you still have the Wilson?

No. I sold those when I bought the JBLs. I don't have a stable of gear in the back room though I do have a couple older pieces, a CJ PV-8 and Quicksilver Mono amps.

edit: and the Lamm M1.2s.

 

[exupgh12]

And many therefore keep upgrading on similar principles/learnings of those initial impressions for decades, which is exactly what noob linearity is. At some point, you have to realise your initial system seemed basic due to what little you knew back then, and maybe you need to go off on a complete tangent to the upgrades you have been doing to get off that linear approach of “upgrading” based on what you previously owned (and knew). Otherwise, it is the equivalent of only being more educated than you were in kindergarten

That statement might make sense if you lived in a bubble. But I’ve got friends using horn speakers, electrostatics, panel systems—you name it. The same goes for amplification and source components—there’s a wide variety. And around here, it’s incredibly easy to get exposed to all kinds of gear. I live within 20 minutes of at least ten importers and dealers.

Beyond that, I’ve also traveled to major high-end audio shows, like the one in Munich, which gives me even broader exposure to the latest and best in audio equipment from around the world.

But this openness isn’t limited to audio. It reflects a bigger reality: this country (not a place for faint hearted) thrives on multiculturalism, and that diversity which we are exposed since day one, influences almost every aspect of life.

 

[bonzo75]

That statement might make sense if you lived in a bubble. But I’ve got friends using horn speakers, electrostatics, panel systems—you name it. The same goes for amplification and source components—there’s a wide variety. And around here, it’s incredibly easy to get exposed to all kinds of gear. I live within 20 minutes of at least ten importers and dealers.

Beyond that, I’ve also traveled to major high-end audio shows, like the one in Munich, which gives me even broader exposure to the latest and best in audio equipment from around the world.

But this openness isn’t limited to audio. It reflects a bigger reality: this country (not a place for faint hearted) thrives on multiculturalism, and that diversity which we are exposed since day one, influences almost every aspect of life.

I went to 6 Munich shows in succession (among others) and it was pretty poor apart from being exposed to western electrics.

But it’s good you have such a community locally

 

[Elliot G.]

This not unlike what is a 'problem' for reviewers. They compare the new model to the previous model of the same component because that is all they have to use for the comparison. The problem is that few reviewers have access to something that offers sufficient contrast. I was faced with that in a few of my own reviews but not in all (Alexia -> Alexia2 vs. Alexia2 -> vonLanga Son). A solution is not to have the review done by someone only with the previous model. Of course some manufacturers prefer to go to the same well again when the reviewer liked the previous model; Wilson is an example here. And you don't find some reviewers making wholesale changes.

I think this is an excellent summary of why much of the process is truly absurd. I find it really interesting that even reviewers in the same publication never hear what the "fellow" reviewers listen to and what they call their reference.
Saying for example that this Wilson is better than the older Wilson has very little relevance to the current market only to this one specific company and segment of its product. So if the new dCS is better than the old dCS what does that say? IMO not a whole lot. Lets be honest here as well people including the reviewers get used to the sound they have in their homes especially since its there on loan.
The process is deeply flawed, perhaps it always was.

Defining the goal is important when reading a review. HP had one. You may not have agreed but at least you knew where he came from. When others have 3 goals I feel that is a cop out so as to not piss anyone off.
If someone says to me I want my system to sound like a live rock concert, I may not feel the same way but Its his/her goal, I respect that.
Reviewing to me today is very much like getting participation trophies.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as much as i personally value in-system head to head compares with gear from different manufacturers, i realize that most manufacturers would prefer not to have that happen to their new dac flagship. dac manufacturers even don't want serious direct head to head vinyl compares. you only read general vinyl/dac comments. not specific pressing/dac comments. so it will rarely happen and that is understandable. which is one reason i had to do it myself.

with analog components it's a whole different review ball game as those head to head compares are ingrained in the reviewing culture. who wants to read an analog review without any references? no one.

 

[microstrip]

Reviews compare systems in room, not just a particular piece of equipment. IMO they are are mainly part of the marketing and divulgation process. If we know well the reviewer and trust him we can read between the lines and get some information that can be useful.

The high end is essentially a subjective and extremely biased hobby, I do not "trust" in reviews. But I collect and weight opinions, surely influenced by my preferences. I have found in the past that compares in reviews are only interesting if the differences are night and day. IMO most people seem to agree that 95% of this hobby is optimization and fail to understand that A/B compares are extremely limited in this aspect.

Again, for me good reviews are a source of information and entertainment, little else.

 

[Ron Resnick]

as much as i personally value in-system head to head compares with gear from different manufacturers, i realize that most manufacturers would prefer not to have that happen to their new dac flagship.

Why do you believe this is, Mike?

Let's say I am interested in purchasing a new flagship DAC in the $300,000 range. There are two candidates in which I am interested, and both of these DAC manufacturers have invited me to their respective factories for a serious and leisurely audition.

Let's say I believe that as a matter of analytical and methodological integrity hearing an unfamiliar DAC in an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar factory listening room which has been optimized for that manufacturer's flagship DAC tells me almost nothing. So I ask each manufacturer if I may bring with me my incumbent $25,000 DAC to compare it directly in his/her listening room with the flagship DAC I am considering purchasing.

One manufacturer says sure, because he/she appreciates that without some kind of comparison it is really nothing but a largely meaningless marketing event. The other manufacturer declines the comparison and withdraws the invitation.

How would you evaluate this situation? What would you think of each of these two manufacturers?