Industrial Power Filters Beat Audiophile Power Conditioners (in Measurements)

[Holmz]

How did the judgement that low EMI improves system sound come from measurements ?

Probably because they didn’t work when hammered by interference.
And that “system sound” could be RADAR or long distance radios, etc.

Let’s not pretend like a bunch of prima donnas doing audiophile stuff are the end all of the electronics, RF, etc.
The main difference here is that one set of power conditioning is made for industry and has some pedigree or expectation to perform to some known standards.
The audiophile set are more generally imbued with magic and also generally have no published proof as to how well they work.

And that all comes before anything to do with how well equipment that they are feeding is designed to cope with the incoming power.
It’s an absolute wild-west with unknown power conditioners feeding unknown equipment.
There is little done to show that say the rails of a device are holding a more stable voltage when the power conditioner is feeding it, and/or whether something untoward is coming in via the nuetral or ground legs.

And that is before we get to the point mentioned by @Paul1960 as to there being a little correlation between what people like subjectively and measurements.

 

[Kingrex]

A possible reason there may be less published data and more flashy words with audio filters is the basic filter principles are known. As in, a choke and some caps will block certain noise. Or a cap can block DC. Its know concepts. If people knew it was a simple set of devices, they may not want to spend the money. Or question the cost. And the measurements from a audio vs industrial filter may not show any real difference. So why are people spending $9000 for one filter and $1400 for another that specs the same. That's not to say they don't sound different. One may use higher quality parts such as better wire, solder, duplex etc. And it may then in most people opinion perform better.

 

[microstrip]

This was a responsibly and soberly written article which questions our subjectivist views on WBF, without being perjorative or ridiculing.

This is a responsible and soberly written article for someone who believes that audio engineering and electronic engineering is a children subject, that can be technically explained in a few sentences. Surely audiophiles who get impressed by anything referring to dB or Hz will be impressed. I just used AI to write the sketch of a much more impressive article, with more complete tables, with more relevant data taken from better sources. Be assured I will delete it, it is garbage.

The thesis of the article is not ludicrous. In fact, Peter indicated that even from his purely subjectivist comparative auditioning point of view he agrees with some elements of the article. Mike Lavigne is quoted in the article. (...)

Thanks for letting us know your references in this article assessment.
Well, I could not find any thesis on this article, just comments. BTW, an high-end audio power conditioner is not just a filter it is a lot more than that.

 

[microstrip]

Listening is important. If there is a general rule that reducing or eliminating EMI yields better sound, that rule did not come from measurement.

There is not such rule. Many tweaks being sold, including power conditioners are EMI radiators. How do you believe that "magic" happens sometimes?

 

[Tuckers]

Two things.

I have had some run ins with Headphonesty recently. They are definitely going anti-audiophile for traffic. They get more traffic being negative than positive. One recent article " Audio Legend Reveals How a ‘Black Market’ for Obsolete Parts Is Keeping High-End Audio Alive" used a video the Audiophile Foundation produced. The entire article is made from the content of the video, with no outside research or sources. Yet they don't properly attribute it other than make a link under a name at the beginning of the article. The whole article reads like their own research. And they manage to make it a negative article once again.

Second, I have gotten the onFilter 2 outlet audiophile filter. I've been playing it for about a week. Its not fully broken in, but I am enjoying the experience. I placed it at my outlet with my two power conditioners plugged into it (one is for analog, one is for digital). It is definitely removing some noise from the system, and in particular brightening my system. And I don't mean that in a bad way, its more like a new light is shining on the stage, highlighting instruments, and enhancing treble, imaging, definition. There is no glare, whiteness or bleaching. Bass is taughter too. I will need a good 200 hours on it to see how it may change over time, but in my system, it is not a negative so far.

 

[Lee]

Another misleading article from Headphonesty. A few observations…

1. Equitech is an audiophile brand. It’s not strictly industrial.
2. Where are the graphs comparing the performance of audiophile filters versus industrial filters? You can’t make a bold claim like this and not back it up. Test the claim.
3. Shunyata has charts that demonstrate the effectiveness of their products. Why is headphonesty leaving out counter examples?

 

[Lee]

Also, recording studios do use these products. Shunyata is in GAT studios and Rick Rubin’s studio. Synergistic is in several studios.

Shunyata even builds products for the medical community and post before and afters of the visual clean-up their CIS products create.

Medical - Shunyata Research

Whether in the world's most celebrated recording studios or in heart surgery labs Shunyata Research products achieve profound, measurable results!

shunyata.com

 

[audiobomber]

Another misleading article from Headphonesty.

There is clearly a market for anti-audiophile views and sentiment that Audio "Science" Review and Headphonesty are monetizing. Honesty would hurt the brand.

 

[wil]

Two things.

I have had some run ins with Headphonesty recently. They are definitely going anti-audiophile for traffic. They get more traffic being negative than positive. One recent article " Audio Legend Reveals How a ‘Black Market’ for Obsolete Parts Is Keeping High-End Audio Alive" used a video the Audiophile Foundation produced. The entire article is made from the content of the video, with no outside research or sources. Yet they don't properly attribute it other than make a link under a name at the beginning of the article. The whole article reads like their own research. And they manage to make it a negative article once again.

Second, I have gotten the onFilter 2 outlet audiophile filter. I've been playing it for about a week. It’s not fully broken in, but I am enjoying the experience. I placed it at my outlet with my two power conditioners plugged into it (one is for analog, one is for digital). It is definitely removing some noise from the system, and in particular brightening my system. And I don't mean that in a bad way, it’s more like a new light is shining on the stage, highlighting instruments, and enhancing treble, imaging, definition. There is no glare, whiteness or bleaching. Bass is taughter too. I will need a good 200 hours on it to see how it may change over time, but in my system, it is not a negative so far.

I am also having a good experience with the OnFilter so far.
Battery > Inverter > Torus Rm20 > OnFilter 6 outlet

I tried just the Torus and just the OnFilter, and found I like the combination of the two best.

 

[PeterA]

Shunyata even builds products for the medical community and post before and afters of the visual clean-up their CIS products create.

I saw a pair of Ching Cheng power cords going into an outlet hooked up to some kind of machine when I had hip surgery at the hospital a few years ago. I had to smile.

 

[tedwoods]

When he started talking about recording studios and noted they don't use filters, or use Equitech, I knew he was full of crap. Art Kelm or Ground One, as far as I know, has worked on at least 200 studio and from what I remember of my conversations with him, the majority use a Controlled Power or Torus isolation transformer.

This is absolutely true! Studios have been using isolation transformers since the 60's. I have recently helped out in "dismantling" one such studio and have found not one but four large isolation transformers, one dating from 1967...!

 

[microstrip]

This is absolutely true! Studios have been using isolation transformers since the 60's. I have recently helped out in "dismantling" one such studio and have found not one but four large isolation transformers, one dating from 1967...!

Studios also have ground bus bars - a solid copper bar (sometimes tinned)
mounted on insulating standoffs, connected to a dedicated technical ground / earth point and use balanced cables. IMO it is not exactly what audiophiles have in their domestic systems.

It always good to learn about other people practice, but the high-end world is not the world of professional audio. Different aims, different practices.

 

[Lee]

Studios also have ground bus bars - a solid copper bar (sometimes tinned)
mounted on insulating standoffs, connected to a dedicated technical ground / earth point and use balanced cables. IMO it is not exactly what audiophiles have in their domestic systems.

It always good to learn about other people practice, but the high-end world is not the world of professional audio. Different aims, different practices.

If you compare the SR ground bus bars to their active grounding boxes, the latter is far ahead.

My view on the pro audio world (I have a lot of studio experience) is that they also want better sound but they are behind sophisticated audiophiles from a noise reduction standpoint.

 

[microstrip]

If you compare the SR ground bus bars to their active grounding boxes, the latter is far ahead.

My view on the pro audio world (I have a lot of studio experience) is that they also want better sound but they are behind sophisticated audiophiles from a noise reduction standpoint.

Can you define "active ground box"? It is one of the more abused marketing terms in the high-end. Next to noise reduction ...

M view is that professionals need reliable and predictable effective, stable ways to reduce noise. Any trouble with them will cost money!

Disclaimer - although I feel somewhat guilty for it , I own some grounding devices. They change the sound of my system.

 

[Lee]

Can you define "active ground box"? It is one of the more abused marketing terms in the high-end. Next to noise reduction ...

M view is that professionals need reliable and predictable effective, stable ways to reduce noise. Any trouble with them will cost money!

Disclaimer - although I feel somewhat guilty for it , I own some grounding devices. They change the sound of my system.

Active Ground Block SX - Synergistic Research

www.synergisticresearch.com

 

[microstrip]

Active Ground Block SX - Synergistic Research

www.synergisticresearch.com

I asked for your own definition using your words and knowledge, not the marketing literature.

 

[Lee]

I asked for your own definition using your words and knowledge, not the marketing literature.

It’s when a current is applied to the grounding.

With a current applied, the noise floor is noticeably lower.

 

[microstrip]

It’s when a current is applied to the grounding.

??? As far as I see you were addressing a device, not a "when". Everyone knows what is a passive ground, you introduced "active box grounds".
IMO if we do not know how hey work and why they can work you can't compare them to studio classic ground bars.

With a current applied, the noise floor is noticeably lower.

??? I am not addressing subjective findings.

 

[Lee]

??? As far as I see you were addressing a device, not a "when". Everyone knows what is a passive ground, you introduced "active box grounds".
IMO if we do not know how hey work and why they can work you can't compare them to studio classic ground bars.



??? I am not addressing subjective findings.

I don’t have time to argue this and it’s pretty evident.

 

[microstrip]

I don’t have time to argue this and it’s pretty evident.

Unfortunately it is not. But I respect your desire to address an important and relevant subject just superficially. Manufacturers have different and particular approaches to the subject, you can't say that someone or something is "far ahead" others if you do not understand the basic concepts.