In search of a DAC which sounds excellent.

morricab

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Went to the Topping site and it is funny that they offer DACs with AKM, ESS and also (at least) one with Cyrrus Logic. What's funny is that all have extremely high SINAD and ultra THD numbers but they make the comment that someone might want to try the "flavor" of the CS based DAC as it is somewhat different from AKM or ESS based DACs. If these numbers are so low as to be inaudible then how can the DAC chip "flavor" the sound...very contradictory IMO...
 

Sampajanna

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Ideon Absolute also uses ESS and that stack is 85k, though they say it is specially designed to their specs
 

bonzo75

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. In fact, I think that in a digital rig the dac makes the greatest difference, and I have been blown away by how different the 15 or so dacs I have tried all sound from one another…

Yep in fact I think for aa digital rig the electronics should be driven by the dac, so for example I will choose a Lampi with 242 valves and a preamp that works with it - the costliest and best combo I know with it is the audionet stern heisenberg. In valve preamps the Aries Cerat works well with Lampi 242. There could be others.
 
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morricab

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Ideon Absolute also uses ESS and that stack is 85k, though they say it is specially designed to their specs
Haven't heard that DAC...
 

Al M.

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Topping was somewhat "grey" in tonality and was quite flat with regard to images. Soundstage was ok but with cardboard cutouts on that stage. Bass was also less powerful and textured. Highs were smooth enough but not so harmonically differentiated...something the Ayon does very well.

Thanks for that info.

Yes I know that kind of digital sound all too well. Ugh.

Interestingly, you can also get that on a good DAC with a bad streaming interface. Or a CD transport with high jitter (e.g., Oppo).
 

morricab

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Thanks for that info.

Yes I know that kind of digital sound all too well. Ugh.

Interestingly, you can also get that on a good DAC with a bad streaming interface. Or a CD transport with high jitter (e.g., Oppo).
It was with my battery powered streamer through a Mutec reclocker...it is a pretty good interface and was the same for all DACs tested.
 

Al M.

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It was with my battery powered streamer through a Mutec reclocker...it is a pretty good interface and was the same for all DACs tested.

Yes, sorry, I was not talking about your specific auditioning setup, but more in general terms regarding potential problems with digital.

Anyway, your description of the sound was very helpful, thanks. As I said, I'm unfortunately all too familiar with that kind of digital sound. Yuck.

Last question, was this the Topping D90SE or the D90?
 

b345t

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I've compared May KTE to upgraded Mojo Audio Mystique Evo and Berkeley Audio Alpha Reference 2, I would keep the May KTE. I don't know how audiophile math translates, but people broadly report the OG Denafrips Terminator to be better than Yaggy, and the Mojo was better than the Denafrips while May KTE is better than the Mojo. Spring 3 is a different model DAC altogether, that's like using DCS Bartok's performance to approximate Vivaldi.

I haven't compared it to Lampizator, but I have auditioned the Pacific and there are aspects of it that are amazing, but there are also aspects where it falls short. I will say though, the degree to which you will be able to take advantage of higher end dacs is bottlednecked by the rest of your system. The system should be commensurate with the upgrade.
Where did you find the pacific fell short? Did you find things in the May KTE you prefer? I have a May KTE. Wondering how it compares to a Tambaqui. Although after having heard how amazing R2R designs are after living with the May for over 2 years, I am interested in the Mola Mola design. Also would like to know how the May KTE compares to the MSB Premier.
 
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thedudeabides

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My old ways still haunt me. We had a saying in the service; "Do something, do the right thing, do the wrong thing, but do something." Different situation, but it seems imbedded into my psyche now. The idea though is simple, if you don't act, the enemy will, he who responds dances to the oppositions dance. Playing defense is losing. It permeated everything though, not so sure that had survived all of the politics though. In war gaming, even though we should win, the flag officers are like McClellan was in the Civil War, too timid and too unwilling to take the requisite losses it takes to win in war gaming a war with China... Anyway, that's the how and why of it for the most part.
With all due respect, may be you should ask yourself who the enemy is and why and what are you not defending and why. To answer your post title, all dacs can be excellent depending on the listener.
 

Atmasphere

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I did not come to teh conclusion you did that dacs all sound the same.
To be clear that isn't what I said. What I said was that if DACs are doing things correctly, they will start to sound the same.
Having also listened to the Topping DAC, I cannot support your conclusion about its sound quality.
Which model? Having heard many DACs in our system one thing I've found that really affects people's perception of sound quality is expectation bias on account of the Veblen Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

For a long time the best digital system I had heard was the Stahltek, which with the transport and DAC was about $72,000.00. This system was marketed by Purist Audio (and if any here know Albert Porter, he was an advocate of this setup, also saying it was the best he had heard as well). We were showing with the designer at RMAF a few years back and he played a cut I also had on LP. So we played them side by side. As soon as he heard the LP version he turned to me and said "Digital has such a long way to go". I've always felt his pragmatism was why his DAC was the best I'd heard.

Purist Audio pulled the plug on Stahltek a few years back so I can't do a comparison like that, but I still have the LP. The Topping does quite well against it although I still prefer the LP. What the Topping does is it doesn't annoy; it makes things like streaming off of YouTube (which doesn't otherwise have good sound) perfectly listenable (although not the 'best', whatever that is). It also sounds better than many DACs I've heard over the years. If this unit had appeared 10 years ago it would have been market disruptive.

I heard a Topping E30 ($125.00) blow a $4000 Monarcy DAC out of the water- the Monarcy IMO was bright, thin, lacking detail and depth, even using the tube output. The Topping was smoother, relaxed and more detailed (and the D90 is a better; with the D90SE better than that...). I guess this all comes down to 'in comparison to what'; my take on digital is as long as it isn't annoying so I don't have to think about the sound quality I'm happy. Put another way I have lowered expectations for digital so its nice when those expectations are exceeded. The Topping has done way more than that.
 

morricab

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To be clear that isn't what I said. What I said was that if DACs are doing things correctly, they will start to sound the same.

Which model? Having heard many DACs in our system one thing I've found that really affects people's perception of sound quality is expectation bias on account of the Veblen Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

For a long time the best digital system I had heard was the Stahltek, which with the transport and DAC was about $72,000.00. This system was marketed by Purist Audio (and if any here know Albert Porter, he was an advocate of this setup, also saying it was the best he had heard as well). We were showing with the designer at RMAF a few years back and he played a cut I also had on LP. So we played them side by side. As soon as he heard the LP version he turned to me and said "Digital has such a long way to go". I've always felt his pragmatism was why his DAC was the best I'd heard.

Purist Audio pulled the plug on Stahltek a few years back so I can't do a comparison like that, but I still have the LP. The Topping does quite well against it although I still prefer the LP. What the Topping does is it doesn't annoy; it makes things like streaming off of YouTube (which doesn't otherwise have good sound) perfectly listenable (although not the 'best', whatever that is). It also sounds better than many DACs I've heard over the years. If this unit had appeared 10 years ago it would have been market disruptive.

I heard a Topping E30 ($125.00) blow a $4000 Monarcy DAC out of the water- the Monarcy IMO was bright, thin, lacking detail and depth, even using the tube output. The Topping was smoother, relaxed and more detailed (and the D90 is a better; with the D90SE better than that...). I guess this all comes down to 'in comparison to what'; my take on digital is as long as it isn't annoying so I don't have to think about the sound quality I'm happy. Put another way I have lowered expectations for digital so its nice when those expectations are exceeded. The Topping has done way more than that.
To be clear, that is just like saying all amps done perfectly will sound the same...except that digital is even trickier that that I think given the inherently unnatural approach to reconstruction of a signal.

I have heard the E30 and D90 in my system...even my inexpensive Metrum Octave NOS DAC sounds a lot better (see the review from Martin Colloms where he goes nuts over it) and my inexpensive Monarchy Audio M24 DAC (the older one with BB PCM63 chips and tube output) let alone my Ayon Skylla 2 DAC (4 x BB PCM 1704K chips and tube output and tube rectified) outperformed it. Also, my old PS Audio UltraDAC 2 (with the UltraAnalog 20 bit modules) and old Kinergetics Research KCD-55 Ultra (same 20 bit UA modules) easily outperform sonically...even though none of these DACs is close technically to the Toppings.

Frankly, the E30 is pure midfi DAC IMO and the D90 only slightly better. If it blew the Monarchy out of the water the setup was all wrong for the Monarchy (see below). E30 is flat flat flat sounding!

BTW. Monarchy doesn't make a $4000 DAC. THey make the NM24, which uses BB PCM1704K chips and tube output and costs $1500 retail but can be had often for about $1K. It doesn't sound at all like you describe, alhtough the older one sounds even better. They are holographic and transparent but since they have a high output impedance (like 2Kohm) so if you ran them with the wrong cables or into a preamp with a low input impedance it could sound like you describe.

Not sure what has happened to you Ralph but you are not the guy who touted OTLs and tube preamps for 30+ years if you think the Topping is at the cutting edge of digital beyond the obvious numbers (since when you became interested in the numbers is beyond me). Maybe you have been listening too much to your new Class D amps? I bet they have great THD and IMD numbers, eh?
 

Atmasphere

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To be clear, that is just like saying all amps done perfectly will sound the same...except that digital is even trickier that that I think given the inherently unnatural approach to reconstruction of a signal.
I wonder what you think the sonic signature of an amplifier actually is??

There is only one correct answer FYI...

Yes, I regard all digital as mid fi. We're sort of on the same page there.
 

rando

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As you might expect, of course I 'actually' listened! What do you take me for? Measurements help and still you have to listen. You should expect that of me by now- in case its not clear I don't want my system to color the sound- I seek neutrality and with our OTLs that has always been the goal.

In my limited capacity the understanding gained was equipment sensitive enough to measure digital audio equipment is not easily found. Which says nothing about what parameters informing design might begin to take on greater focus in the event orders of magnitude finer measurements were attainable.

Do you have a link handy to media you have created. CD in particular.
 
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Atmasphere

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In my limited capacity the understanding gained was equipment sensitive enough to measure digital audio equipment is not easily found. Which says nothing about what parameters informing design might begin to take on greater focus in the event orders of magnitude finer measurements were attainable.

Do you have a link handy to media you have created. CD in particular.
I don't have a link. Canto General was recorded in 1986. We produced it on LP and CD. The LPs sold out almost immediately since a public radio station in Boston played the piece in its entirety on Theodorakis' birthday. We still have some CDs in stock.

I know a lot of people here poo poo Amirim and his audioscience.com community. But when a DAC is able to do all the bits available its something to pay attention to, since as I pointed out in my initial post here, digital audio is composed of bits and you really do need them all. The Topping D90SE was the best he had measured in that regard. I don't spend a lot of time over there but that got my attention.

I know enough about opamp theory to know that you have enough feedback on an opamp it can be entirely neutral (which was probably not so 20 years ago or more, when i heard a lot about the 'sound' of certain opamps; FWIW that isn't supposed to happen but older opamps lack the gain bandwidth product to not have a 'sound'. Modern ones have changed that, as long as you don't ask for more than about 20dB out of them). This is one of those topics where audiophiles are doing a bit of living in the past, thinking that their experience of 20-30 years ago about opamps applies to modern opamps as well.
 
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Tuckers

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The following are opinions formed by my ears only and boxes that I've had the pleasure of listening to, take them with a grain of salt. I was in digital audio design more than a decade ago, so I definitely have a clear idea of what I consider good digital sound which I am sure many won't share.

Compared to a good NOS R2R dac none of the chipsets I've heard hold a candle. That is where my tastes lie, and I am definitely in the camp of R2R sounding more like music than most anything else. I've heard AKM and ESS dacs up to about $3K (haven't heard higher end models), both have their sound.

To my ears, after extended listening he ESS ones tend to have a bit of focus on the treble, more separation of instruments, leaner through the midrange, but ultimately a bit fatiguing. These qualities tend to be great on a portable - I have an iBasso D200 that was about $1.5K that used the ESS and I love it. Those qualities help cut through outside interference that portable use has to deal with. Its funny when you read rave reviews of ESS chipped DACs one of the things that usually gets said is this design fixes the ills of the classic ESS sound. And from the ones I've heard they do, but on extended listening of a few months, its usually still there, but just patched over a bit.

AKM chips sound more midrange focused, rounded and softer. Usually at the expense of treble energy and bass taughtness and slam. Better for home audio than the ESS though for me, as you can spice it up with brighter silver cables, footers etc.

The classic Burr Brown and other New Old Stock chips can sound good, but never really grab me, and I listen to a lot of high rez and DSD, so that rules them out for me.
 

morricab

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I don't have a link. Canto General was recorded in 1986. We produced it on LP and CD. The LPs sold out almost immediately since a public radio station in Boston played the piece in its entirety on Theodorakis' birthday. We still have some CDs in stock.

I know a lot of people here poo poo Amirim and his audioscience.com community. But when a DAC is able to do all the bits available its something to pay attention to, since as I pointed out in my initial post here, digital audio is composed of bits and you really do need them all. The Topping D90SE was the best he had measured in that regard. I don't spend a lot of time over there but that got my attention.

I know enough about opamp theory to know that you have enough feedback on an opamp it can be entirely neutral (which was probably not so 20 years ago or more, when i heard a lot about the 'sound' of certain opamps; FWIW that isn't supposed to happen but older opamps lack the gain bandwidth product to not have a 'sound'. Modern ones have changed that, as long as you don't ask for more than about 20dB out of them). This is one of those topics where audiophiles are doing a bit of living in the past, thinking that their experience of 20-30 years ago about opamps applies to modern opamps as well.
The sound tells me not so much had changed in fact…
 

Sampajanna

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All dacs measuring the same paramters in the same way with the same equipment and then using the same chips and parts sound the same, i.e. Chinese dacs…. It is no wonder you dont fully enjoy digital…. I don’t agree otherwise, which goes back to my original point. I get why you didn’t like my food analogy because produce is biological and audio machines are machines. So my analogy was halfway bad, but the other half applies. The instrument receiving the food or sound is biological. I am biological. My ears and brain are biological. I am not a computer. I am not a device and a device cannot tell me what I like. For me this goes beyond even biology, because I am also a soul. I have spirit in me and there is spirit in music. You can call that emotion if you like, but I see it as more. And that is not measurable. You can measure the dac, but you have no data that proves that the thing you measure results in greater pleasure for more humans. Did you do a statistical study to measure blind how many humans get up and dance with a Topping dac vs another? Of course not. Where is the proof that higher SInad = greater pleasure?

I don’t dislike ASR because they rely on measurements; I dislike them because they are mostly very negative and it is an unpleasant place to hang out. Many also troll other forums as well. They are know-it-alls and too full of hubris. As I said, my issue with your comments isnt that you like Topping, which i s fine, but that you imply that I should also like them the way you do and if I dont it is because I am trapped in the delusion of “Veblen goods” which you keep repeating pointlessly, including links each time…
 

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