In praise of idlers

[DasguteOhr]

Did you listen?

Yes , a friend fullfiled this expensive dream, all is trimmed lightweight and resonancefree. Baked carbon wandboard & plinith other parts mostly titanium. Extremly precision motor controller delivers excellent results, if you can even say that with a mobile app. Delivery took 19 months( 38k€)
Sounds phantastic to my ears the music tumbles out effortlessly, never heard before. cartridge from rega is a custom-made for that turntable

 

[Audiohertz2]

Looks interesting , but sorry would have to pass , visually flat and ridiculously expensive for whats presented ..!

Just saying ….

 

[PeterA]

Yes , a friend fullfiled this expensive dream, all is trimmed lightweight and resonancefree. Baked carbon wandboard & plinith other parts mostly titanium. Extremly precision motor controller delivers excellent results, if you can even say that with a mobile app. Delivery took 19 months( 38k€)
Sounds phantastic to my ears the music tumbles out effortlessly, never heard before. cartridge from rega is a custom-made for that turntableView attachment 146761

Do you have any photographs of the turntable assembled in a system? I’m curious about the relationship between the motor and the platter.

 

[PeterA]

Its why i said in absolute terms Peter , Best of Best ..

BTW , Do you consider VPI a light weight platter..( not talking entry level tables )

There are so many different models of VPI. I’m not really sure. Perhaps they are not the lightest platters, but I would not describe them as high mass either. I know my SME model 30/12 sounds a lot different from the micro Seiki that replaced it. The SME is interesting because it’s a medium weight platter with a very short stretchy belt. The speed had to be adjusted with the needle in the groove because stylus drag affected the speed.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Looks interesting , but sorry would have to pass , visually flat and ridiculously expensive for whats presented ..!

Just saying ….

The platter is made of special material, some kind of expensive ceramic material. Bearings: zirconium. Speed test tonearm works with the record clamp. Set it once and save it in the controller. There are many tweaks on this record player that I have not seen before. Very precise, accurate vtf scale are included.

@PeterA
Next time i make some some photos promise

 

[mtemur]

The platter is made of special material, some kind of expensive ceramic material. Bearings: zirconium. Speed test tonearm works with the record clamp. Set it once and save it in the controller. There are many tweaks on this record player that I have not seen before. Very precise, accurate vtf scale are included.

@PeterA
Next time i make some some photos promise

I haven’t heard this one (Naia) yet but I always feel like Regas sound plastic, light, not serious. I don’t think this would be any different. I even prefer a Lenco, Garrard or Technics 1200 instead. Even those can be more listenable.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Technics 1200 ..! now thats down right insulting …..

 

[Balle Clorin]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of BD vs DD ..?
Talking in absolute term.

belt: + cheap and simple to make, no electronics skilles needed,. - drift and drag dependant, probably higher W&F too. Belt vibrations add noise, and wear of belt makers consistent speed hard to assure.
DD: +Keep steady speed forever..not affected by drag. -old electronics can be hard to repair. (Hunting speed seem to be a myth invented by belt drive suppliers. ) can have more flutter than belt drives.

Idler: + Quick start and stop, resists drag effect . - too many to mention see Korf blog

Turntable Drives. Part III, Idler Drive and its Problems

korfaudio.com

 

[tima]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of BD vs DD ..?
Talking in absolute terms ….

Attached is a write-up by Peter Moncrieff of International Audio Review (no advertising) that covers a lot of the issues thoroughly. It is purpotedly part one of a review of the Rockport Sirius, but it is really a discussion of the role of a turntable and the drive topologies that attempt to fulfill it -- in, as you asked, an absolute sense. Its analysis of direct drive is a wee bit dated as it was written before the advent of slotless or coreless motors in a DD, but otherwise a good read. Moncrieff was a colorful character in early high-end publishing; I believe he has since passed on while his Web site continues to be available.

 

[mtemur]

Thanks, @tima, for sharing Moncrieff’s write-up. It was previously shared by another member somewhere in this forum, maybe even in this thread. The article provides important insights into the design weaknesses of each topology. I’ve shared my thoughts on direct drives before, and this write-up clearly highlights inherent flaws of DD.

I don’t know if I’m right or wrong but IMHO, whether coreless or not, a DD must have a thick, high-mass platter to minimize interactions from the motor, such as noise, electromagnetic interference, and corrective kicks. Achieving this requires a highly sophisticated motor controller—one that delivers high torque at startup and then maintains speed with a more relaxed approach. More importantly, DD manufacturers should focus on upgrading the bearing, moving beyond the simple Technics 1200 design to modern, inverted, larger-diameter, and more precisely machined bearings, ideally incorporating jewel and/or ceramic materials.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Simplicity always wins out , just not too simple ..

 

[KESM]

Thanks to all…valuable feedback. I’ve decided to get the Schopper restoration based on the feedback from Juerg.

Table’s back from Schopper…remarkable improvement…in operation and sound quality (noise floor significantly reduced on the unit). The motor/chassis/main platter bearing was restored. A
shielded power cord & new idler wheel was added to the unit. It runs notably better stemming from the overhaul. I’m getting a wooden plinth from Bob Thompson (madeinbobland.com) to complete the do-over on the initial purchase of TT back in 2015.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

Supatrac nighthawk 12
Dava mono
Commonwealth idler

Life can be incredibly special in moments like these

Audio Karma

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

 

[volken]

Supatrac nighthawk 12
Dava mono
Commonwealth idler

Life can be incredibly special in moments like these

Audio Karma

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

Commonwealth with my Two-phase powersupply

 

[twintech]

Interesting that you mention the Kuzma XL DC, which I happen to own. Out of all of the belt drives I've had the opportunity to experience throughout the years, this one has some of the most snap, dynamics and air which does in some ways remind me of my 301 Statement.

Hi, Do you still own a Kuzma Stabi XL - DC?

Only the curiosity got the better of me, and one just happened to come my way! I haven't seen too many for sale used, and this one was probably about the third one that I have seen in around 8 - 10 years so, I bought it! It was only delivered last Saturday! It's got very good history which I do think is quite important, it was purchased direct from Franc Kuzma as the original owners are a Audiophile Record Label in London and Franc Kuzma is apparently a fan of this label, anyway the turntable was used to carry out quality control on new record releases and has done less than 170 hours!
I have got make some changes to my rack, I do have a Isoclean Isoplane number 20 isolation platform which quite substantial and robust, it is similar to the Kuzma Platis but... a lot more reasonable!
I'll let you know how I get on with it, it will probably be in around 7 - 10 days....

 

[twintech]

Interesting that you mention the Kuzma XL DC, which I happen to own. Out of all of the belt drives I've had the opportunity to experience throughout the years, this one has some of the most snap, dynamics and air which does in some ways remind me of my 301 Statement.

Hi, Do you still own the Kuzma Stabi XL DC?

 

[twintech]

Interesting that you mention the Kuzma XL DC, which I happen to own. Out of all of the belt drives I've had the opportunity to experience throughout the years, this one has some of the most snap, dynamics and air which does in some ways remind me of my 301 Statement.

Hi, Do you still happen to own a XL DC?

Only, I have just upgraded from the Kuzma Stabi M to the XL DC!

I am obviously over the moon to finally get my hands on one as it's been a grail piece for many years.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this statement piece of a turntable?

Regards,
Lynford.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

Commonwealth with my Two-phase powersupplyView attachment 149660

This is awesome. What is your experience with motor noise?

I am rebuilding my commonwealth with parts from new zealand. I am increasingly not convinced that uber expensive and overpriced plinths make sense for a commonwealth if the motor and table are properly restored and set up. it should be dead quiet. curious what you think as you clearly must agree?

 

[Argonaut]

I am increasingly not convinced that uber expensive and overpriced plinths make sense for a commonwealth if the motor and table are properly restored and set up. it should be dead quiet.

I tend to gravitate more toward less huge and massy plinths with the 12D , perhaps only one or two layers in a more open construction with attention paid to resonance control , but not overly dampened so the music remains alive , if on the recording of course.

Something akin to the following as examples :

 

[volken]

This is awesome. What is your experience with motor noise?

I am rebuilding my commonwealth with parts from new zealand. I am increasingly not convinced that uber expensive and overpriced plinths make sense for a commonwealth if the motor and table are properly restored and set up. it should be dead quiet. curious what you think as you clearly must agree?

The motor is a two phase reluctance synchronous motor.For vibration free run a two phase powersupply is the optimal drive , also exact speed adjust is possible on the powersupply.
To show the improvement I made some vibration measurements on the motor itself with a B@K acc.meter first picture shows the drive by mains supply.
Second the two phase powersupply keep a eye on the so called torque vibration at 100 hz all motors driven by mains have these vibrations and the harmonics clearly seen in the picture.
With two phase drive this vibration reduce from-28 db to -61 db which is huge ,also harmonics are strongly reduced
All of this because each coil inside of the motor is driven with his own low distortion poweramplifier and phase and voltage adjust for minimal vibration.
Next picure show the distorted mains voltage drive signals due mains distortion 3-4% thd , and next picture the low distortion voltage from the power supply about 0.4% thd
The sound improvement is also huge and a heavy plinth is not needed anymore.