How Much Bass is Enough

[Kingrex]

Peter and Tima. Your describing instrument sounds. I don't see the type of instrument reproduced as having a lot to do with how well a subwoofer integrates with a speaker. Describing a speakers voicing would be more accurate. Your blending a sub to a speakers. Your not blending a sub for reinforcement at a live event. That would be a PA.

Maybe your point is, can a subwoofer articulate all the delicate harmonics contained in different types of instruments. Maybe that's a decent questions. But I would agree with Morricab that the sub needs to be fast and tight in it's performance. If it were to be described as slow and sluggish, would you expect it to reproduce subtle details that differentiate different instruments. Or would you expect it to make a low frequency thud.

 

[PeterA]

Peter and Tima. Your describing instrument sounds. I don't see the type of instrument reproduced as having a lot to do with how well a subwoofer integrates with a speaker. Describing a speakers voicing would be more accurate. Your blending a sub to a speakers. Your not blending a sub for reinforcement at a live event. That would be a PA.

Maybe your point is, can a subwoofer articulate all the delicate harmonics contained in different types of instruments. Maybe that's a decent questions. But I would agree with Morricab that the sub needs to be fast and tight in it's performance. If it were to be described as slow and sluggish, would you expect it to reproduce subtle details that differentiate different instruments. Or would you expect it to make a low frequency thud.

I did not interpret Brad’s post the way you did. He said bass that was natural, tight, and fast. He did not say subwoofers, and he didn’t say anything about integrating subs with main speakers. I thought he was talking about the sound of bass notes from instruments.

As I wrote earlier, I want the lower frequency performance of my system does sound natural meaning it makes the instruments sound natural. I don’t hear all of those instruments, sounding tight and fast. I do think woofers need to be efficient and large to sound natural. And they have to have the right amplification behind them, ideally in my opinion, the same amplification as is used for the other drivers. At least the most successful systems that I’ve heard follow that approach. I try to focus on the sound of instruments, not the sound of the system. I want the system to disappear.

 

[morricab]

I know what you mean by natural, but I’m a little unsure about “fast and tight”. I think the speaker has to respond quickly and be well controlled by the amplifier, but I don’t particularly think of an acoustic double bass as producing a fast and tight sound. Or tympani. A kick drum and electric bass I suppose are a bit tighter and faster. There’s an interesting relationship between a note’s transient, sustain, and decay with bass instruments. They all sound different. I want extension and weight and mass. You can hear when it is just right.

Different speaker types seem to follow different approaches in this frequency range, and the results vary. My corner horns sound very different from my old Magicos with their sealed cabinets. And of course, the amplifiers can also have a big influence on the results.

The point is that it doesn’t have overhang and therefore produce bloated bass sound. If the sound of instrument continues on for a time, like a tympani drum, then it maps that but for shorter pulses like in electronic music, it maps that accurately too. A kick drum thud should be pretty short and sweet most of the time…tight.

 

[morricab]

I did not interpret Brad’s post the way you did. He said bass that was natural, tight, and fast. He did not say subwoofers, and he didn’t say anything about integrating subs with main speakers. I thought he was talking about the sound of bass notes from instruments.

As I wrote earlier, I want the lower frequency performance of my system does sound natural meaning it makes the instruments sound natural. I don’t hear all of those instruments, sounding tight and fast. I do think woofers need to be efficient and large to sound natural. And they have to have the right amplification behind them, ideally in my opinion, the same amplification as is used for the other drivers. At least the most successful systems that I’ve heard follow that approach. I try to focus on the sound of instruments, not the sound of the system. I want the system to disappear.

No, you interpreted wrong. I was clearly talking about how a system reproduces bass.

 

[PeterA]

The point is that it doesn’t have overhang and therefore produce bloated bass sound. If the sound of instrument continues on for a time, like a tympani drum, then it maps that but for shorter pulses like in electronic music, it maps that accurately too. A kick drum thud should be pretty short and sweet most of the time…tight.

I fully agree. It has to cover the full range of bass instruments, acoustic, and electric. I was simply saying that there are some instruments that I would not describe as tight and fast. Natural yes.

I like the no overhang part.

 

[PeterA]

No, you interpreted wrong. I was clearly talking about how a system reproduces bass.

Thank you, Brad. I guess it wasn’t clear to me.

I like the idea of drivers being fast and the amplifiers is having tight control over the drivers. In this context, I don’t know what natural means. The use of all three adjectives together is what confused me I guess

I would add that the best systems I’ve heard had large light woofers that were very efficient. I

 

[treitz3]

I think what I am saying is, if your using servo bass, feed them a dedicated 10awg branch wire that is clean. They seem to be very responsive to the source power.

Hello, Rex. I can say that IME, they are not only very responsive to source power but also the signal fed to them. The more noise that is abated and with pure power fed to them, the more they respond positively. The difference between my subs when I first got them, compared to today is quite noticeable, even though nothing but subtle adjustments were made to the subs after improving the incoming power and signal. The end result was definitely not subtle though.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

Hello, Rex. I can say that IME, they are not only very responsive to source power but also the signal fed to them. The more noise that is abated and with pure power fed to them, the more they respond positively. The difference between my subs when I first got them, compared to today is quite noticeable, even though nothing but subtle adjustments were made to the subs after improving the incoming power and signal. The end result was definitely not subtle though.

Tom

I did plug my sub into my power strip from my Torus. But in order for it to reach, I had to plug it into a junk multi extension cord. I was thinking of making a better cord at some time.

 

[treitz3]

Ah, then you still have plenty of unrealized potential out of your sub then.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

Ah, then you still have plenty of unrealized potential out of your sub then.

Tom

Yes. I spun the wire tonight as well as wrapped it in mylar with ded soft silver as a drain. Then covered it with Tech Flex. I need to install the ends.

 

[tima]

Peter and Tima. Your describing instrument sounds. I don't see the type of instrument reproduced as having a lot to do with how well a subwoofer integrates with a speaker

You are correct. I was not talking about subwoofer integration. Neither does talking about bass as 'fast and tight' speak to subwoofer integration. I understand by what I hear, not by what is physically causing me to hear.

 

[morricab]

You are correct. I was not talking about subwoofer integration. Neither does talking about bass as 'fast and tight' speak to subwoofer integration. I understand by what I hear, not by what is physically causing me to hear.

How can you understand what you hear if you don’t know what is physically causing it?

 

[Alrainbow]

Rex is the subs your posting about servo ? Or vented or anything.
If you posted it excuse me , but the type is paramount to interaction .

 

[Kingrex]

Rex is the subs your posting about servo ? Or vented or anything.
If you posted it excuse me , but the type is paramount to interaction .

Its a horn loaded 10 inch with treated paper cone. 19.5 inch throat.

https://vanzylaudio.com/bb-10.

Joe Pitman had the Genesis with servo subs I noted in another thread.

 

[Kingrex]

I made a new power cord for my sub. I don't know I heard anything. I am going to let it settle for a couple weeks, then do a back and forth.

I do love the added bass the sub is giving. I went into the room and played music while I fitted the ends on the new cord. I sort of looked at the plate amp and wondered if the sub was running. I figured it was as it was sounding good. After I had the ends terminated, I unplugged the sub amplifier and immediately I found the scale, power and lower end support fell away. This little 10" driver does amazing things.

I am sort of wanting a second sub. I would like to try and place them in both front corners. Go for a stereo setup. That way I could drive them a little harder and if they localize some, they will be doing it correctly to the soundstage the mains are creating. Maybe. I'm just tossing a concept I know nothing about.

 

[Lee]

I made a new power cord for my sub. I don't know I heard anything. I am going to let it settle for a couple weeks, then do a back and forth.

I do love the added bass the sub is giving. I went into the room and played music while I fitted the ends on the new cord. I sort of looked at the plate amp and wondered if the sub was running. I figured it was as it was sounding good. After I had the ends terminated, I unplugged the sub amplifier and immediately I found the scale, power and lower end support fell away. This little 10" driver does amazing things.

I am sort of wanting a second sub. I would like to try and place them in both front corners. Go for a stereo setup. That way I could drive them a little harder and if they localize some, they will be doing it correctly to the soundstage the mains are creating. Maybe. I'm just tossing a concept I know nothing about.

Subs always sound better in pairs. I learned that the hard way.

 

[Kingrex]

Subs always sound better in pairs. I learned that the hard way.

I hear better as 4. I would love a second one. But I'm gonna work with what I have for now. I may try and move it to the center between the speakers. Just for fun. See what it does there.

 

[infinitely baffled]

If someone wants to reproduce club sound, just buy club speakers and electronics should be easily available in the current market

Two issues with this
1) if you also enjoy other genres, from alt-rock to psychedelia to acoustic. One is unlikely to get the delicacy one desires for these genres from a club spec pa

2) the bass horns used at clubs are massive.
For example, some time ago i was researching bass horns through the speakerplans forum as i need something to provide sub bass for my outdoor system. Asked which was the best sub, the educated response came down to a choice of two; the Danley Labhorns or the EAW 882 aka Levan aka Big Bertha. To build a single Levan sub takes14 sheets of 8'x4' marine ply. I'd want at least two.
Just imagine the weight- these speakers are never shipped, they are built to plan in situ by joiners.

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[LL21]

Two issues with this
1) if you also enjoy other genres, from alt-rock to psychedelia to acoustic. One is unlikely to get the delicacy one desires for these genres from a club spec pa

2) the bass horns used at clubs are massive.
For example, some time ago i was researching bass horns through the speakerplans forum as i need something to provide sub bass for my outdoor system. Asked which was the best sub, the educated response came down to a choice of two; the Danley Labhorns or the EAW 882 aka Levan aka Big Bertha. To build a single Levan sub takes14 sheets of 8'x4' marine ply. I'd want at least two.
Just imagine the weight- these speakers are never shipped, they are built to plan in situ by joiners.

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I am with you on this one. For those whose musical tastes run the gamut and who equally have ONE system, then it only makes sense to go for a system that can accommodate the kinds of music and the way one likes to listen to that music as much as possible. I am just as critical of how my deep house sounds as my jazz or Goldberg Variations. And I dont play Goldberg at club levels...(I dont play club music at club levels either actually)...but I do like the ability for a couple of minutes to let the system rip when working out and have some fun for 30 minutes or so.)

That is part (for me) of a great system...it is part of life and living, whether over dinner, while working (often), during movies and throughout the day.

 

[Kingrex]

Howard had the big Altec theatre subs. 5 feet wide by about 3 tall. 2 x 12 inch EV drivers. He had them on casters to move them. I doubt they went down below 35 hertz. The depth of bass does seem to be tied to the length of the horn. My BB10 horn sub while fantastic, does not play real deep. But it does an amazing job at filling the 50 hertz up to 86 where I cut it off with a 12 db slope.

If I wanted a 25 hertz sub, it would be flat packed and shipped that way. Assembled at my home.