How Much Bass is Enough

[Kingrex]

Your missing the point. You will have nodes at your seat. Pink noise is a really bad tool to use for hearing nodes. It's averaged noise that randomly changes and is only good for octave to octave levels.

Nodes go both ways +/- so you will get peaks and nulls. There is a good chance you already have things placed. The problem with the sub is it is using room boundaries to get that 106 calculated sensitivity.

You move away from the walls and you will loose some sensitivity and low end but it may not mater as you can always turn it up to make up for any loss.

Rob

I hear you. Your presenting a idea that because there is bass reproduction in my system, there is a chance I have a peak or null at my chair. I did see a peak at 59 hertz and used dsp on the sub to address what I could.

And I see no problem with the Sub using the room boundary as an extension of the horn. It's really kind of genius. It appears to be done correctly in such a way that it is a tremendous benefit. Not a problem, as you up appear to be alluding to.

If you haven't listened to the sub I have in my room, you're just throwing out conjecture.

 

[Robh3606]

And I see no problem with the Sub using the room boundary as an extension of the horn. It's really kind of genius. It appears to be done correctly in such a way that it is a tremendous benefit. Not a problem, as you up appear to be alluding to.

If you haven't listened to the sub I have in my room, you're just throwing out conjecture.

It's not a problem it's old school. Using corners for boundary reinforcement for horns in homes goes back to the 50's probably before folded corner horns Klipschorn, JBL Hartsfield. Even EV Patrician which had a 30" woofer used it so nothing new. They also used triangular reflex enclosures JBL and Altec as an example for a 604.

If you used these enclosures, any of them, out of the corner bass response would suffer. WRT listening in your room, I was trying to point out to you that you were using the wrong tool. I don't need to listen in any room to know there will be nodes yours too. If your happy fine. But since you have DSP at your disposal a sine sweep could be beneficial beyond the one mode at your chair you tried to address. Kind of proves my point.

Suit yourself and carry on

Rob

 

[Kingrex]

ried to address. Kind of proves my point.

Suit yourself and carry on

Rob

I have done those too. Another way to capture data.
What's the problem. What point did you prove?

And Yes Yes Yes. Its all about being happy. That is the point. For me at least. Maybe something else is your priority. Like, Measure Measure Measure. Were not hear to enjoy!!!!!!!!! Measure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Robh3606]

I have done those too. Another way to capture data.
What's the problem. What point did you prove?

You did a sine sweep? Why didn't you just say so?

What point did I prove? That you were going to have modes at your listening chair. We all do to some degree in untreated rooms. Most of the time we can listen and enjoy in spite of them.

Measure measure measure?

The whole reason you would do in room measurements is to use as a tool to improve your listening experience. So overall a good idea that is beneficial and can pay handsome dividends.

Rob

 

[andromedaaudio]

The best stereo system ive ever heard was at a show in a untreated room but with a vaulted ceiling .
May be it acts as a bass trap im not an expert, but the ceiling is very important.
It didnt even have the TS1 Sub but it was " just right "

 

[Kingrex]

You did a sine sweep? Why didn't you just say so?

What point did I prove? That you were going to have modes at your listening chair. We all do to some degree in untreated rooms. Most of the time we can listen and enjoy in spite of them.

Measure measure measure?

The whole reason you would do in room measurements is to use as a tool to improve your listening experience. So overall a good idea that is beneficial and can pay handsome dividends.

Rob

I did not use it to adjust the EQ. I did what the speaker designer was coaching me to do. He used pink noise. But I have run sweeps in the room and gotten a similar looking graph.

 

[Robh3606]

The best stereo system ive ever heard was at a show in a untreated room but with a vaulted ceiling .
May be it acts as a bass trap im not an expert, but the ceiling is very important.
It didnt even have the TS1 Sub but it was " just right "

Well yes! Most of us can't afford a professionally designed and dedicated listening room. I have always had to make do with whatever room/s I could set-up a system in. Usually you can make it work and sometimes you get lucky with the room and it sounds "just right" warts and all.

I just shifted a system into a "new room" that was empty and was able to move the system around once I got that figured out it was too lively so I built some fiberglass absorption panels that did the trick. No subwoofers in this set-up I get response to below 25Hz so not needed. Also know where the peaks and nulls are from the sweep. Might do a bass trap will see. Used the Delos set-up disk for imaging and sine sweep to help position the system and fine tuning after placement.

Rob

 

[JohnP]

Scott of Found Music who made my amp would make me a more affordable PP that could run my woofer. I wonder if I can seperate my digital controls from the internal class D amp. Or do I have to purchase a stand alone active crossover.

If possible, I think having a separate amplifier directly drive each component of a speaker is preferable. Avoiding passive crossovers improves the sound substantially.
John

 

[JohnP]

Interesting. With the sub I am more aware warm up time of my main amp. Its takes some time for the 2 to jell. I also find every day I am backing the sub back a little. But as soon as I pull the interconnect to the sub I realize how much I am asking it to do.

Slope of 24 and 12 are quite different. 24 is faster and more curt. 12 is thicker and a little tubby.
I knocked the gain down a little more. I think I will end up lowering the crossover point to a place closer to where the speaker falls off.

Music does dictate a little of how much bass I want. Oddly I like more with classical. Less with Jazz. More with Pop. I have to revisit rock.

At the moment after 40 minites of play, I'm super pleased with a moderate level listening to Pink Martini.

I agree that adjusting the bass for a specific recording improves the music. I take it a step further. I adjust the recording with an EQ. The sound is much improved. Most of the adjustments are in the low and high frequencies. I listened to mostly classical music. I find that I can improve the sound of every recording I listen to with the EQ.

 

[Kingrex]

I agree that adjusting the bass for a specific recording improves the music. I take it a step further. I adjust the recording with an EQ. The sound is much improved. Most of the adjustments are in the low and high frequencies. I listened to mostly classical music. I find that I can improve the sound of every recording I listen to with the EQ.

By EQ, do you mean the whole crossover. I fiddle with the gain a little. Occasionally the slope. Slope is very audible. I don't mess with the EQ much. I am only 3db down at 59 hertz.

I love the crossover in my hand. So easy to tweak.

 

[JohnP]

By EQ, do you mean the whole crossover. I fiddle with the gain a little. Occasionally the slope. Slope is very audible. I don't mess with the EQ much. I am only 3db down at 59 hertz.

I love the crossover in my hand. So

I thought what you were doing with the bass was interesting. I use an EQ before the signal gets to the crossovers. The EQ only varies amplitude. I have six frequencies that I can vary. What I was trying to say was that in the same way you adjust bass for different types of music, you can can adjust the sound of recordings at more frequencies with an EQ.

 

[M-dB]

Some other threads were touching on speaker voicing, in particular, BASS.
It appears modern speakers of the Audiophile pedigree are focused to flat frequency reaponse.
Horns, while probably technically playing flat, present bass far different than dynamic drivers.

Then there are subs. I'm intrigued with bass at the moment as I just added a horn loaded subwoofer. Its only a 10 inch driver. But wow does it play. With a 19.5" x 19 5" mouth, aimed at a wall that is 19.5" away to make the boundary part of the horn, the power is impressive. I have had a Velodyn as well as a couple 10" Rel in my system. Neither do what a single 10" horn sub can do.

Anyhow. What about bass and how much we allow into our systems. Young people like bass. Automotive enthusiasts like a lot of bass. A lot of newer music is designed for a prodigious amount of bass. Is anyone using bass to deliver power and foundational deep power? Are people using it to find higher clarity in the midrange. What and how much do you use.

My sub is very audible. As in, its doing work the main speakers were not doing. I have heard a lot of people say you shouldn't hear your subs. You only notice them when you turn them off. I'm probably moving in that direction. I can hold the subwoofer amp/crossover in my lap. Shockingly I have this sub darn good just sitting hear dialing around the volume, phase, and slope. I have not messed with the crossover yet. I do have some software I was told to load on my phone to help with that. So far I would say its been a complete success. I would never be without a sub in this system again.

Rex

I would never be without a sub in this system again.

Neither would I.

Which model Velodyne did you use?

What method was used to determine the Velodyne subwoofers position within your room?

 

[Alrainbow]

Has anyone compared servo bass to vented ?
it's a very different sound as is loaded horns

 

[treitz3]

I am a big fan of direct servo bass. Very tight.

Tom

 

[morricab]

Has anyone compared servo bass to vented ?
it's a very different sound as is loaded horns

Servo bass is good…owned Infinity, Genesis and mirage withe sealed servo bass; however, horn bass is just as fast and tight but more natural.

 

[PeterA]

Servo bass is good…owned Infinity, Genesis and mirage withe sealed servo bass; however, horn bass is just as fast and tight but more natural.

I know what you mean by natural, but I’m a little unsure about “fast and tight”. I think the speaker has to respond quickly and be well controlled by the amplifier, but I don’t particularly think of an acoustic double bass as producing a fast and tight sound. Or tympani. A kick drum and electric bass I suppose are a bit tighter and faster. There’s an interesting relationship between a note’s transient, sustain, and decay with bass instruments. They all sound different. I want extension and weight and mass. You can hear when it is just right.

Different speaker types seem to follow different approaches in this frequency range, and the results vary. My corner horns sound very different from my old Magicos with their sealed cabinets. And of course, the amplifiers can also have a big influence on the results.

 

[Kingrex]

I heard the Genesis speakers with Servo bass with large dipole array ribbons. Many times. That was one of the first houses I did an experiment on when developing my wiring techniques. That speaker was driven by Genesis Class D amplifiers.

That system had a extreme response to clean power. The panel feeding it had corrosion and poor grounding. I re-grounded the panel, re-designed the layout of wiring in the panel as well as deoxed the entire panel. replaced the breakers to audio with new. It was such a massive gain, everyone in the room was fist bumping in excitement. I think what I am saying is, if your using servo bass, feed them a dedicated 10awg branch wire that is clean. They seem to be very responsive to the source power.

 

[tima]

I know what you mean by natural, but I’m a little unsure about “fast and tight”. I think the speaker has to respond quickly and be well controlled by the amplifier, but I don’t particularly think of an acoustic double bass as producing a fast and tight sound. Or tympani. A kick drum and electric bass I suppose are a bit tighter and faster. There’s an interesting relationship between a note’s transient, sustain, and decay with bass instruments. They all sound different. I want extension and weight and mass. You can hear when it is just right.

I agree. Acoustic double bass is resonant within the instrument's sound chamber and can have a woody character coming off its large wooden body. Decay is partly a result of that resonance. Electric bass often has no sounding chamber and we hear it through an electronic amplifier. A kick drum is smaller than a bass drum, is usually has a tighter skin and a fixed mallet. A bass drum is controlled by the percussionist's hand in terms of strike force, where on its skin it is struck and the choice of mallet. Those acoustic instruments can be played fast and tight but also can vary across a range to slow and loose.

 

[PeterA]

I agree. Acoustic double bass is resonant within the instrument's sound chamber and can have a woody character coming off its large wooden body. Decay is partly a result of that resonance. Electric bass often has no sounding chamber and we hear it through an electronic amplifier. A kick drum is smaller than a bass drum, is usually has a tighter skin and a fixed mallet. A bass drum is controlled by the percussionist's hand in terms of strike force, where on its skin it is struck and the choice of mallet. Those acoustic instruments can be played fast and tight but also can vary across a range to slow and loose.

Thank you for clear descriptions, Tim. Good systems are able to present these different sounds and the nuances one hears from the actual instruments.

 

[Kingrex]

Neither would I.

Which model Velodyne did you use?

What method was used to determine the Velodyne subwoofers position within your room?

Well, I guess if I had to think back, I was very new to the idea of subs and didn't know much beyond move it in and out from the wall. Thy in the center as well as behind you. It never got a fair shot. At the time it was trying to play with some Sonus Faber speakers as well as a Rege Oairus integrated amp.

The REL were placed and set by a guy that pounded his chest in self proclaimed expertise. No tolls were used.