How do you know when you are done?

[Kbh57]

I don't know as much as many of you, but I know this-the vinyl vs. streaming debate won't be settled as long as both formats exist, because its subjective. Doesn't matter what measures how, if it sounds best to your ears, and offers the experience you enjoy, it is best-for you. Maybe not for me. I assume these debates continue because people enjoy the argument, not because they think they can ever "prove" their case, or change any minds. This seems fundamental, something everyone here surely knows. So, I find a lot of the points interesting, a few even thought provoking, but I cannot generate much emotion, anger or otherwise, because someone enjoys one format or the other. WBF? Whatever you like best. But I do enjoy learning about the different points of view.

Fine single malt Scotch whiskey is a good analogy. I much prefer Isle of Islay scotch-love that peat and smoke (sort of the vinyl of the whiskey world), so that's the best whiskey for me. No contest, no way I'll ever change my mind. Many like the sharper, clarified taste of highland scotch-that's their best. And they ain't changing.

So, I suspect the point is not to win the argument, its to have the argument.

 

[microstrip]

Do you think the tone on WBF is better now?

Basically the same as ten ears ago. We can find a sample in this 2015 old thread - I posted in page 4 at a time digital was just preparing the jump IMO.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/wbf-poll-which-sounds-better-digital-or-analog.17838/page-4

Curiously anyone reading just the sonorous posts of the more frequent posters could expect that analog would have a overwhelming victory - no it just won 65/35 at a time digital was mostly CD and I had strong reserves on file servers ...

 

[MarkusBarkus]

I've been on the internet since before the web existed. rec.audio.highend; those that remember know it involved a lot of flame wars.

...but don't you miss the sound of the old modem?! Oh, man. Use "Veronica" to Telnet into the UseGroups on the "96 baud" modem so some guy could tell you what's wrong with you.

 

[DasguteOhr]

...but don't you miss the sound of the old modem?! Oh, man. Use "Veronica" to Telnet into the UseGroups on the "96 baud" modem so some guy could tell you what's wrong with you.

This has to happen now, a little nostalgia... admit it, you miss the sound

 

[Anton D]

This has to happen now, a little nostalgia... admit it, you miss the sound

Electric Light Orchestra is really gonna miss those royalties.

 

[Tiltedfault]

Just to amplify a little on what has already been said about streaming before we get back to the slugfest, regardless of one’s preference for digital or analog, there does seem to be a particular advantage of streaming (and here I mostly have experience with classical) in that streaming makes comparing particular performances by different conductors/composers a relatively breeze.

Often we are looking for a definitive performance, or maybe just a performance where a conductor or ensemble brings out a particular nuance or attribute which was missing from other performances. With streaming, not only is our musical catalog vastly expanded, but the mechanics of delving into serious comparisons of performances is made vastly easier. It, in fact, encourages one to make these comparisons, because it is made so much easier.

It’s hard for me to imagine being completely satisfied with vinyl, not because of its sound quality, which can be fantastic, but simply for its limitation on the availability of new performances. I don’t know if I’ll ever be done with my system, but certainly I will never be done listening to new and old music. Streaming, fortunately or unfortunately for some, is the better medium for listening to both new music and new performances. And when it comes to comparisons, old performances too.

 

[Al M.]

It’s hard for me to imagine being completely satisfied with vinyl, not because of its sound quality, which can be fantastic, but simply for its limitation on the availability of new performances.

The lack of availability of new music and new performances on vinyl was the main reason for me not to pursue vinyl at all anymore (after my youth spent with vinyl records), while there were a number of other reasons as well. I love contemporary classical music, including avant-garde classical music, too much to limit myself to vinyl.

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy great older performances that are available on vinyl as well. Following Stockhausen's Punkte ("Points") for orchestra, in its 1994 revision, I was just listening on my digital rig to the brilliant performance by the Amadeus Quartet of Haydn's string quartet op. 55/1 (on the DGG label), which also features a seductive wooden string tone as you would expect from great vinyl. Digital has come a long way!

 

[tima]

Yes, and the current debates on analog vs digital on WBF have nothing on the truly vicious and flame-throwing debates on WBF of the topic from 10 or so years ago. It was way more combative then. We should not fall into the typical trap of "the good old times were better" bias.

Depends on what you read and your attitude.

Some of the most enjoyable reading is found in the many threads here, going back 10 years:

David Karmeli Discusses 5 Reference Turntables Forum

With the resurgence of vinyl and turntables as a thriving part of the audiophile community it is the goal of WBF to bring fresh ideas to the forum. Most of us know David Karmeli (ddk) from internet audio forums as his name has become almost legendary in analog. There is no doubt that David...

www.whatsbestforum.com

There is a friendliness and comraderie that is lacking in many of the threads and posts of recent.

The introduction of the social credit system brought more contention.

 

[treitz3]

So, I suspect the point is not to win the argument, its to have the argument.

Unfortunately? You are correct..IMO/IME.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

Depends on what you read and your attitude.

Some of the most enjoyable reading is found in the many threads here, going back 10 years:

David Karmeli Discusses 5 Reference Turntables Forum

With the resurgence of vinyl and turntables as a thriving part of the audiophile community it is the goal of WBF to bring fresh ideas to the forum. Most of us know David Karmeli (ddk) from internet audio forums as his name has become almost legendary in analog. There is no doubt that David...

www.whatsbestforum.com

There is a friendliness and comraderie that is lacking in many of the threads and posts of recent.

The introduction of the social credit system brought more contention.

I completely agree Tim. I also enjoyed reading the threads where people described visiting other systems. Those seem to be far fewer now.

 

[PeterA]

I found this fascinating comment from former member DDK made ten years ago in 2015 quite interesting given our recent discussion about the vinyl revival. Here addressing the hardware side:



“(Edit) You shouldn't forget that by 2002 all the high end turntable manufacturers including Micro Seiki were gone, there was no market or incentive for anyone else to jump in back then. We're lucky to have this unexpected revival at this point in time, we owe it to digital's failure to deliver the "Perfect Sound Forever" promise !”

 

[Al M.]

Depends on what you read and your attitude.

Some of the most enjoyable reading is found in the many threads here, going back 10 years:

David Karmeli Discusses 5 Reference Turntables Forum

With the resurgence of vinyl and turntables as a thriving part of the audiophile community it is the goal of WBF to bring fresh ideas to the forum. Most of us know David Karmeli (ddk) from internet audio forums as his name has become almost legendary in analog. There is no doubt that David...

www.whatsbestforum.com

There is a friendliness and comraderie that is lacking in many of the threads and posts of recent.

The introduction of the social credit system brought more contention.

You can also find friendly threads on gear topics (albeit also some that may not interest you) or systems on the current forum, and also on music-related topics. Just take a look around.

 

[tima]

You can also find friendly threads on gear topics (albeit also some that may not interest you) or systems on the current forum, and also on music-related topics. Just take a look around.

I do look around.

Maybe you'd like my Schoenberg videos.

 

[microstrip]

I don't know as much as many of you, but I know this-the vinyl vs. streaming debate won't be settled as long as both formats exist, because its subjective. Doesn't matter what measures how, if it sounds best to your ears, and offers the experience you enjoy, it is best-for you. Maybe not for me. I assume these debates continue because people enjoy the argument, not because they think they can ever "prove" their case, or change any minds.(...)

Vinyl versus streaming is just a diversion on vinyl versus digital. Our TOS does not allow politics, but there is something political in the essence of this debate. Just considering audiophiles, vinyl is nowadays essentially elitist, digital is egalitarian.

A vinyl lover having just vinyl must locate the best pressings of yesterday and proclaim his love for the superior old music, people using digital get the same bits of more than 100 million tracks. Surely the vinyl community benefits of many tens of years of experience that has reached the top of quality and the implementation still limits the capabilities of the bits.

There are so many factors affecting individual stereo sound preference that we can be sure that a discussion based just on sound preference will never converge.

 

[microstrip]

I found this fascinating comment from former member DDK made ten years ago in 2015 quite interesting given our recent discussion about the vinyl revival:



“(Edit) You shouldn't forget that by 2002 all the high end turntable manufacturers including Micro Seiki were gone, there was no market or incentive for anyone else to jump in back then. We're lucky to have this unexpected revival at this point in time, we owe it to digital's failure to deliver the "Perfect Sound Forever" promise !”

I am fascinated by your naivete of bringing a false and controversy statement to fuel our discussions.

As Al.M. has refereed "We should not fall into the typical trap of "the good old times were better" bias."

 

[Rensselaer]

Just to amplify a little on what has already been said about streaming before we get back to the slugfest, regardless of one’s preference for digital or analog, there does seem to be a particular advantage of streaming (and here I mostly have experience with classical) in that streaming makes comparing particular performances by different conductors/composers a relatively breeze.

Often we are looking for a definitive performance, or maybe just a performance where a conductor or ensemble brings out a particular nuance or attribute which was missing from other performances. With streaming, not only is our musical catalog vastly expanded, but the mechanics of delving into serious comparisons of performances is made vastly easier. It, in fact, encourages one to make these comparisons, because it is made so much easier.

It’s hard for me to imagine being completely satisfied with vinyl, not because of its sound quality, which can be fantastic, but simply for its limitation on the availability of new performances. I don’t know if I’ll ever be done with my system, but certainly I will never be done listening to new and old music. Streaming, fortunately or unfortunately for some, is the better medium for listening to both new music and new performances. And when it comes to comparisons, old performances too.

Yes, as Kbh57 said in his way above, different strokes for different folks.

For those who want to quickly compare performances of a particular piece, streaming is apparently preferred, same anyone interested in the latest releases.

Others will prefer AAA R2R and vinyl because of (in the humble opinion of many) a more real/natural sound, albeit the majority of such source content being pre-1980.

 

[tima]

Vinyl versus streaming is just a diversion on vinyl versus digital. Our TOS does not allow politics, but there is something political in the essence of this debate. Just considering audiophiles, vinyl is nowadays essentially elitist, digital is egalitarian.

That is simply false.

In assembling an analog front-end, thanks to the RIAA, one can choose whatever turntable, tonearm, cartridge and phonostage one prefers and play any LP.

 

[PeterA]

Vinyl versus streaming is just a diversion on vinyl versus digital. Our TOS does not allow politics, but there is something political in the essence of this debate. Just considering audiophiles, vinyl is nowadays essentially elitist, digital is egalitarian.

Elitism? When just considering audiophiles, we can choose WADAX and the new dCS for streaming perfect sound. That is until next year when it will surely be more perfect.

A vinyl lover having just vinyl must locate the best pressings of yesterday and proclaim his love for the superior old music, people using digital get the same bits of more than 100 million tracks.

Vinyl lovers choose which pressings to collect. There is no “must” about it. And as we see from recent vinyl sales figures, it must not be the pressings of yesterday. For people using digital, there are different resolutions. Often not given choices. There are higher rez and lower rez which does not seem very egalitarian to me. And then there is whatever may come tomorrow.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Elitism? When just considering audiophiles, we can choose WADAX and the new dCS for streaming perfect sound. That is until next year when it will surely be more perfect.



Vinyl lovers choose which pressings to collect. There is no “must” about it. And as we see from recent vinyl sales figures, it must not be the pressings of yesterday. For people using digital, there are different resolutions. Often not given choices. There are higher rez and lower rez which does not seem very egalitarian to me. And then there is whatever may come tomorrow.

I think most audiophiles are deaf.
They mistake clean sound and shiny objects for accurate sound,
Its useless to discuss

 

[Tangram]

Vinyl versus streaming is just a diversion on vinyl versus digital. Our TOS does not allow politics, but there is something political in the essence of this debate. Just considering audiophiles, vinyl is nowadays essentially elitist, digital is egalitarian.

A vinyl lover having just vinyl must locate the best pressings of yesterday and proclaim his love for the superior old music, people using digital get the same bits of more than 100 million tracks. Surely the vinyl community benefits of many tens of years of experience that has reached the top of quality and the implementation still limits the capabilities of the bits.

There are so many factors affecting individual stereo sound preference that we can be sure that a discussion based just on sound preference will never converge.

I think you mean vinyl vs. digital has a classist, not political, element to the debate but I disagree with both premises. Come up to Toronto one weekend and I’ll take you to a record show. You’ll see that vinyl appeals to all walks of life. Collecting is a significant part of the vinyl attraction, but it doesn’t have to be expensive. I’d add that finding a music lover these days who only listens to vinyl is extremely rare.