"How can we ever truly know if we are hearing exactly what is on the recording?"

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, would you say the very nature of streaming adds to the "higher level" enjoyment you're experiencing?

Ie does having nr infinite choice of music ramp up the overall level of enjoyment, that your impressive system then makes the most of?

 

[tima]

Perhaps the shear exposure to more musicians and being in the stream lately is also shaping this openness to listen rather than actively think any more in this engagement. I remember sitting in a park listening to my uncle’s jazz big band when I was 5 or 6 and being swept away with the music and not being aware of anything else, not the people around me or the noises in the distant traffic and ocean noises from the beach nearby... there was just the music and me and no things. My first relationships with live music triggered my search for that no place... maybe I have just gone full cycle and gotten back to the no where, no time and no place that not being aware of the mechanism allows music to take you

Wonderful reminiscence.

 

[Bobvin]

Aaron Copland understood this too. In his book What to Listen for in Music, he talks about how a fundamental aspect of enjoying music takes place on a “sensuous plane,” which is “a kind of brainless but attractive state of mind [that] is engendered by the mere sound appeal of music.”

Excellent! Some of these threads are intellectual rabbit holes, and I am as guilty as the next guy for over-thinking the whole damn thing, certainly wrt original thread question.

But “a sensuous plane” (love that!) is always my goal, where the music moves me emotionally, and where I can feel it viscerally. The goal for me is to get out of my head and listen for the pleasure of it. Probably why I suck at auditioning gear on the spot and need to live with something for a time—letting the strengths or weaknesses of a product announce themselves rather than me listening for them.

 

[Al M.]

Excellent! Some of these threads are intellectual rabbit holes, and I am as guilty as the next guy for over-thinking the whole damn thing, certainly wrt original thread question.

But “a sensuous plane” (love that!) is always my goal, where the music moves me emotionally, and where I can feel it viscerally. The goal for me is to get out of my head and listen for the pleasure of it. Probably why I suck at auditioning gear on the spot and need to live with something for a time—letting the strengths or weaknesses of a product announce themselves rather than me listening for them.

I agree that it is good to get out of one's head with respect to the system when it comes to listening to music. Yet in order to deepen the emotional, visceral experience I like to engage with the music itself intellectually. I have found that this helps.

My favorite example, out of many possible ones, to explain why this is the case: If you do not intellectually recognize a variation of a melody as such, that is, in its relation to the original melody, how can you emotionally appreciate its beauty – as variation, not just as melody in itself?

Understanding of music thus can considerably heighten its emotional impact. The human experience is a whole. One cannot neatly compartmentalize it into 'rational' and 'emotional' parts. Attempts to do so miss out on the richness of life.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham, would you say the very nature of streaming adds to the "higher level" enjoyment you're experiencing?

Ie does having nr infinite choice of music ramp up the overall level of enjoyment, that your impressive system then makes the most of?

I believe it does for me, streaming shifts the focus and the pattern of my traditional listening behaviour... the adventure of discovery feeds also into the drive and purpose and reinforces listening to music as the core of the session. Also helps in ways of avoiding getting focussed on how a track sounds today compared with how it sounded last time because you repeat music less. Instead I’m more often comparing how a performance is compared to others so that becomes more a core to the focus of music listening.

Getting to hear greater musical diversity certainly deepens your perspectives on music and approaches to composition. The flexibility of the sessions unfolds in a more intuitive fashion and stops me from getting caught up in a program pattern. The shifting spirit and dynamics of the new recharges the process of listening and keeps you alive in this.

I definitely don’t think this change in me has all been about streaming but it has been a clear contributing factor to a shifting focus. The characteristic nature of the gear has really been the fundamental change, but like a melting ice sheet it just took a bit of time to move the perceptual pattern of a long time and then flow me into another more musically open stream.

 

[tima]

I agree that it is good to get out of one's head with respect to the system when it comes to listening to music. Yet in order to deepen the emotional, visceral experience I like to engage with the music itself intellectually. I have found that this helps.

My favorite example, out of many possible ones, to explain why this is the case: If you do not intellectually recognize a variation of a melody as such, that is, in its relation to the original melody, how can you emotionally appreciate its beauty – as variation, not just as melody in itself?

Understanding of music thus can considerably heighten its emotional impact. The human experience is a whole. One cannot neatly compartmentalize it into 'rational' and 'emotional' parts. Attempts to do so miss out on the richness of life.

Well, yeah, but ... okay...

Can you read music Al and follow a score? That's a great way to have fun with the very example you mention.

I truly enjoy an intellectual understanding of music, knowing about intruments, knowing about the evolution of 'styles' from one composer or era to the next, trying to figure out different conductor's interpretations of the same piece, knowing about performers, and experiencing the act of performance and the skill involved in playing an instrument.

Imo, one doesn't need to intellectually recognize a variation of a melody in order to experience it and appreciate it within the context of the piece.

Ask a composer or performer if a listener needs to recognize a shift in the time signature from common to waltz in order to enjoy what they're hearing to the fullest extent. (If you're looking at the Copland quote, remember who he was.) I'm reluctant to gauge one person's personal enjoyment versus another's in terms of what they know when listening.

I don't think anyone (in this thread anyway) advocates compartmentalizing music understanding or enjoyment into this and that. I completely agree with you that intellectual engagement is satisfying and rewarding on many levels. And if that is what heightens one's personal "emotional, visceral experience " then by all means.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

If you do not intellectually recognize a variation of a melody as such, that is, in its relation to the original melody, how can you emotionally appreciate its beauty – as variation, not just as melody in itself?

Understanding of music thus can considerably heighten its emotional impact.

. . .

Hmmm. An understanding of music certainly might add nuance and perspective to the overall appreciation of the the music.

But the incomparability of interpersonal utility teaches us that there's no way to prove that one person likes vanilla more than another person likes chocolate. There's no way to know that a person who is utterly ignorant of technical music understanding isn't deriving more personal pleasure from listening than somebody who understands technical music.

 

[tima]

Also helps in ways of avoiding getting focussed on how a track sounds today compared with how it sounded last time because you repeat music less. Instead I’m more often comparing how a performance is compared to others so that becomes more a core to the focus of music listening.

Your comments rmind me, I've meant to raise the topic of how the ability to repeat performances on our home stereos impacts what we hear and how it influences our discussion of topics such as the one in this thread and the topic of "recreating the sound of an original musical event." It certainly is key to making system/room changes. Not trying to swerve this thread; more of a note that this could be a topic in it own right.

 

[tima]

the incomparability of interpersonal utility

Oh my !!

 

[tima]

I suck at auditioning gear on the spot and need to live with something for a time—letting the strengths or weaknesses of a product announce themselves rather than me listening for them.

Yes, me too. Some folks like a quick A/B switch - takes me a while to compare gear. First impressions can be right, but not always.

 

[morricab]

Yes, me too. Some folks like a quick A/B switch - takes me a while to compare gear. First impressions can be right, but not always.

I have found that I can hear what's wrong with a piece of gear very quickly and my long term impression doesn't change very much (an encounter with the Reed rim drive TTs was a perfect example of an immediate response for me that stayed consistent over time). There have been more subtle effects that took a long time to decide what was "right" and lead to a change but those were situations where I could have really lived with either choice...

 

[morricab]

Coming back to the OP though...I have made a number of live recordings with digital and analog tape of solo violin, violin and piano, violin and cello and string quartet. Those recordings, while not professionally finished, are quite vivid and give a good insight into what the session itself sounded like. That does not mean I know if everything that was on the recording is being completely recovered other than I know what the real live session sounded like and I know the recordings played back on good systems sound like a good facsimile of what I heard live when I made the recordings. Is there more there that would close the gap if I had a "perfect" playback system? Perhaps or perhaps all the meaningful content has been retrieved. One of my references is the 24 Paganini Caprices that my ex played on a Stradivarius while standing in-between my Acoustats and where I had the condenser microphone (mono recording) at the listening position. The tape deck was a refurbished mid-70s TEAC R2R with a reference grade tape (Ampex something or other). Played back through that Acoustat system it sounded scarily real with the exception of room sound being a bit drier than the real thing (the recorded room acoustic was essentially doubled up when played back in the same room).

I encourage people to make simple recordings (or not so simple) and see how close the live to the played back works.

As I mentioned in a previous post...recording my voice direct to disk sounded, to my ears, by far the most realistic to how I hear my voice when I speak compared to either digital or analog tape recordings of my voice. Which begs the question of how much is really being captured and if a significant bit is lost in recording then playback, even if perfect, will also not be able to sound maximally realistic even if it gets everything out of the recording.

One of my best records is a Jim Hall direct to disk recording that has an immediacy and realism with essentially no processing. This makes you feel you are right there in the middle of the recording session...something that is not really felt even with many upfront sounding recordings. It is one of the most "you are there" recordings I have heard. Some other D2D recordings I have heard have similar qualities but the performances are "meh" so I didn't buy them. If all the top guys had done D2D recordings then us audiophiles would have benefitted mightily and we might not be having a lot of the debates we are having...to me D2D done well has the least loss of any medium.

 

[tima]

I'm always surprised when I hear a recording of my voice - sounding better on the recording than 'in person.'

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Hmmm. An understanding of music certainly might add nuance and perspective to the overall appreciation of the the music.

But the incomparability of interpersonal utility teaches us that there's no way to prove that one person likes vanilla more than another person likes chocolate. There's no way to know that a person who is utterly ignorant of technical music understanding isn't deriving more personal pleasure from listening than somebody who understands technical music.

Most of the music I listen to is complex to the core and thats why I like it and appreciate the performers dedication to it. Can I read the sheet or count the time signatures in my head, not a chance!

Here is an example of this, one of my favorite songs by Dream Theater.

 

[kach22i]

One of my best records is a Jim Hall direct to disk recording that has an immediacy and realism with essentially no processing. This makes you feel you are right there in the middle of the recording session...something that is not really felt even with many upfront sounding recordings. It is one of the most "you are there" recordings I have heard.

I believe this may tie into one of the PDF's I posted a couple of weeks ago about surround sound. People in the study (out of the UK?) liked to hear more sound behind them than the normal acoustics of a concert hall would provide. And this sound would not have the sound delay of natural hall reverberance, it was in real time, non-delayed.

My reaction to this study was that most people like being in the band and as close to the instruments as possible.

Perhaps not a correct assumption but it makes sense to me, anyone that's been on stage knows it's a thrill of a lifetime.

 

[Al M.]

Well, yeah, but ... okay...

Can you read music Al and follow a score? That's a great way to have fun with the very example you mention.

Yes, I can to some extent. I have used scores as help for writing several of my guides through Stockhausen's music,

https://www.stockhausen-essays.org

but by no means for all of them. I love seeing a score, and it can give you more insight into a composer's genius, but I usually prefer to just listen to what the sounding music tells me.

 

[accwai]

Yes, I can to some extent. I have used scores as help for writing several of my guides through Stockhausen's music,

https://www.stockhausen-essays.org

but by no means for all of them. I love seeing a score, and it can give you more insight into a composer's genius, but I usually prefer to just listen to what the sounding music tells me.

Connection timeout on the link above. Could that be fixed? Would be most interesting hearing from somebody who reads scores "to some extent" and yet can glean insight from something like this:

But before that, what could be said about this:



and this:

 

[Bobvin]

You lost me @ klavier (harpsicord). I can’t stand that instrument. Argh!

 

[BruceD]

Connection timeout on the link above. Could that be fixed? Would be most interesting hearing from somebody who reads scores "to some extent" and yet can glean insight from something like this:

But before that, what could be said about this:



and this:

Well frankly the Stockhausen piece is certainly an acquired taste--not my cuppa--the notation and time changes from bar to bar are unusual to say the least-normal/compound/duple/etc -- a bit of nightmare to master -ha!

Note the extremes from Fortissimo to Pianonissimo within the notations plus stretches the almost full extent of the Full Keys Spectrum- 88+also requiring good dexterity to reach, as notice the sustain of some previous notes are carried onto another --the reach is considerable one would
need finger movement of a10 key span-2 over the obligatory Octave (8 notes)--indeed a truly unique composition from a mind clearly in another space from mere rationality --no?

Will appeal to some Music Lovers I feel-bit over my head!

-more an exercise on my mind anyway.

As for Mary Had a little Lamb in item 2--are yes well all learnt that at 6yrs-- basic and simple Slowly and Pianonissimo --then a Fortissimo on the
last chord--my old brain can figure that one

I leave the experts to fathom the intricacies of the answer to your query --Good Luck

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

Connection timeout on the link above. Could that be fixed? Would be most interesting hearing from somebody who reads scores "to some extent" and yet can glean insight from something like this:

The link now works. Must have been a temporary outage of EarthLink domain websites (it affected another one of mine too).

Fascinating score. I don't know how much insight I could glean from this; Stockhausen has also written less abstract music where score reading is rewarding for me personally.