Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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David,

Maybe this thread could be moved to your sub forum along with system two to keep this stuff all together ? Over the top my friend !

Talk about over the top Christian, we're kindred spirits. One of these day you should come visit with our friend Mr. Brown and the FERARRI! Open roads, 80 MPH speed limits = 110+ mph cruising speeds all day long :D, just ask Steve.

david
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Talk about over the top Christian, we're kindred spirits. One of these day you should come visit with our friend Mr. Brown and the FERARRI! Open roads, 80 MPH speed limits = 110+ mph cruising speeds all day long :D, just ask Steve.

david

to drive with David one has to take a double dose of Valium

The highways all had a speed limit of 80 mph and going to Zion and Bryce and passing cars along the way we were hitting speeds of 103-105 mph without a blink of the eye
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,116
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Northern NY
Talk about over the top Christian, we're kindred spirits. One of these day you should come visit with our friend Mr. Brown and the FERARRI! Open roads, 80 MPH speed limits = 110+ mph cruising speeds all day long :D, just ask Steve.

david

I would relish the opportunity one day. Thank you David.
 

Taksil

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2012
33
7
355
Sydney, Australia
David,

Greetings and Kudos to you from Sydney!

ALF alerted me to your system a while ago but I have just found this thread today after following Doc's thread on his 5 day Amigo tour to your place.

Respect for the perseverance, thought, love and care in which you have put those systems together.

Looking forward to read about the Mono room when it comes alive.

All the best from the land of the Didgeridoo!
Taksil
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
David,

Greetings and Kudos to you from Sydney!

ALF alerted me to your system a while ago but I have just found this thread today after following Doc's thread on his 5 day Amigo tour to your place.

Respect for the perseverance, thought, love and care in which you have put those systems together.

Looking forward to read about the Mono room when it comes alive.

All the best from the land of the Didgeridoo!
Taksil

Hi Taksil,

ALF was supposed to visit at some point to but hasn't made it, I see your connection from your respective systems. I'll have the Mono system up by end of summer, just have to move a ton of equipment around first. Also waiting for a new batch of Garrard bases that I have on order to arrive.


Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated!

david
 

Calle_jr

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2015
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www.euphonia-audioforum.se
What a fantastic system!
I really enjoy watching the whole environment of your room and setup.

I see you placed the JBL subs on quite a distance behind the horns. How do you get them integrated?

Thanks for showing these incredible setups!
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
What a fantastic system!
I really enjoy watching the whole environment of your room and setup.

I see you placed the JBL subs on quite a distance behind the horns. How do you get them integrated?

Thanks for showing these incredible setups!

Thanks for looking Calle, appreciate the kind comments:)!

The subs are only 2.8 meters from the baffle and 2.1 meters from the back of the horn, that's not much at all, you can easily be further away. If you're really looking for 100% integration then you have to go beyond the basics, xover point, volume and phase and this is where measurements will fail and you have to trust your ears. For one thing, active subs with class D amps will never completely mesh with a tube driven main speaker, no matter how well you set it up there's that hiccup, best case is a change of tonality, worst case its like an audible patch added to low frequency of your main speaker. Sure you can cover it up by boosting the sub up the frequency range and level but you'll end muddying the sound of the main speakers. You'll gain excessive body all the way into the mids. Servo controlled ones are even more difficult to deal with than just plain active subs. Best is to get passive subs, use the same kind of amplification as your main speaker with the exact same cabling.

david
 
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ALF

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2012
475
158
385
Southwest
Hi David,

ALF is cleared for take-off...we need to find a workable date.

Soon, I am in a Klang state-of-mind...:)

I am sure that the altitude will be fine; that flat-lander Amigo, he was dizzy...maybe, not from the departure from sea level; most likely, it was from the chance to finally hear vinyl done right :).

Cheers!
Alan
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Hi David,

ALF is cleared for take-off...we need to find a workable date.

Soon, I am in a Klang state-of-mind...:)

I am sure that the altitude will be fine; that flat-lander Amigo, he was dizzy...maybe, not from the departure from sea level; most likely, it was from the chance to finally hear vinyl done right :).

Cheers!
Alan

That too :)! Let me know when you got time.

david
 

Calle_jr

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2015
159
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Sweden
www.euphonia-audioforum.se
The subs are only 2.8 meters from the baffle and 2.1 meters from the back of the horn, that's not much at all, you can easily be further away. If you're really looking for 100% integration then you have to go beyond the basics, xover point, volume and phase and this is where measurements will fail and you have to trust your ears.
Timing was the main thing I was wondering about. I think you're right. As long as the subs don't cancel frequencies from the main speakers.


For one thing, active subs with class D amps will never completely mesh with a tube driven main speaker, no matter how well you set it up there's that hiccup, best case is a change of tonality, worst case its like an audible patch added to low frequency of your main speaker. Sure you can cover it up by boosting the sub up the frequency range and level but you'll end muddying the sound of the main speakers. You'll gain excessive body all the way into the mids. Servo controlled ones are even more difficult to deal with than just plain active subs. Best is to get passive subs, use the same kind of amplification as your main speaker with the exact same cabling.
Thanks.
I think it works fine to use active subs on high level, i.e. to get the sub signal from the main speakers.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Timing was the main thing I was wondering about. I think you're right. As long as the subs don't cancel frequencies from the main speakers.

No problem with the timing or cancellation in this case. I've used subs in the past for cancellation purposes in boomy rooms.

Thanks.
TI think it works fine to use active subs on high level, i.e. to get the sub signal from the main speakers.

The can work well if you get the balance right but I find the final integration depends on the rest of the system, it doesn't always work for me.

david
 
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Calle_jr

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2015
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No problem with the timing or cancellation in this case. I've used subs in the past for cancellation purposes in boomy rooms.
That's interesting. I know a guy who did that. He's a designer at Jorma cables and NoFrills Audio. Bernt, don't know if he's member.
But if it's a room acoustics problem, I think HH is a nicer solution. But of course, it requires more space.

The can work well if you get the balance right but I find the final integration depends on the rest of the system, it doesn't always work for me.
Agree!
In my room, I have the level and extension necessary to my taste from the main speakers alone. But the subs blend on quite low level and increases the depth of perspective. That is the best use of subs in my opinion.
This was actually the main reason for my question. I was hoping you used your subs to increase perspective, and maybe you do. The distance beween main speakers and subs will affect the perceived depth, but it requires precision tuning. And as you say, don't always work (tip over to blurring).
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
That's interesting. I know a guy who did that. He's a designer at Jorma cables and NoFrills Audio. Bernt, don't know if he's member.
But if it's a room acoustics problem, I think HH is a nicer solution. But of course, it requires more space.

It works, specially in small spaces and customers with very tight budgets.


Agree!
In my room, I have the level and extension necessary to my taste from the main speakers alone. But the subs blend on quite low level and increases the depth of perspective. That is the best use of subs in my opinion.
This was actually the main reason for my question. I was hoping you used your subs to increase perspective, and maybe you do. The distance beween main speakers and subs will affect the perceived depth, but it requires precision tuning. And as you say, don't always work (tip over to blurring).

That's exactly how I use them, they're barely audible even close up but they add a nice foundation when the music calls for it and perspective, depth? But room has quite a bit to do with perspective/depth as well.

david
 

Calle_jr

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2015
159
10
225
Sweden
www.euphonia-audioforum.se
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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David,

You have probably been asked this question tens of times ... If you did not own the Siemens Bionor´s, what would be the major candidates for your Listening Room 1?
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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WOW!

What else is there to say?
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
David,

You have probably been asked this question tens of times ... If you did not own the Siemens Bionor´s, what would be the major candidates for your Listening Room 1?

Speaker choice is dependent on the electronics, since the first time I heard the original Lamm ML2, SET is the only way for me. I still have and love that first pair of the ML2s I bought, now in room 2. There are some excellent modern speakers that I can live with but everything I really care for is vintage. In no specific order, Vitavox corner horns & Bass Bin, Tannoy Autograph & Autograph Professional, some RCA, Altec VOTT, larger WE horns. Then there's JBL… many vintage models from the 50's to the 90's I was living and can live again with any of these speakers and be perfectly happy. Though none really can touch the Bionors.

david
 
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andrew_stenhouse

New Member
Oct 26, 2015
229
1
0
Sydney, Australia
Dear David,
One of the joys of joining a forum is being able to take the time to savour member's systems; Here I was wandering around the members gallery when I came across your system. And was stopped. In. My. Tracks. It is absolutely bonkers. I love it.

I'm not sure whether to congratulate you, or make an appointment with the nearest psychiatrist for an urgent intervention :D

In all seriousness, this is one of those over the top systems which just leave me with a sense of shock and awe, knowing there is always someone out there with the commitment and means to pursue this hobby over the years to the zenrith of their interest, without constraint or apparent wifely approval. If you are married, and, if you are, I have no idea how you still are, I want to know how you got away with it.

In short, this is one of those systems that I would really love to hear, and hopefully be left alive afterwards to tell the tale - I can imagine it would, at full flight, have the impact roughly akin to a A380 on take off but still be able to reproduce the most delicate of passages with great aplomb.

And of course that has to be one of the finest collection of turntables and cartridges ever assembled as well. Talk about being spoilt for choice.

If Mrs Taksil every sees this, Tax is in trouble...

Its just fantastic. Congratulations and thanks for making my morning.

513806607374.png
 
Last edited:

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Dear David,
One of the joys of joining a forum is being able to take the time to savour member's systems; Here I was wandering around the members gallery when I cam across your system. And was stopped. In. My. Tracks. It is absolutely bonkers. I love it.

I'm not sure whether to congratulate you, or make an appointment with the nearest psychiatrist for an urgent intervention :D

In all seriousness, this is one of those over the top systems which just leave me with a sense of shock and awe, knowing there is always someone out there with the commitment and means to pursue this hobby over the years to the zenrith of their interest, without constraint or apparent wifely approval. If you are married, and, if you are, I have no idea how you still are, I want to know how you got away with it.

In short, this is one of those systems that I would really love to hear, and hopefully be left alive afterwards to tell the tale - I can imagine it would, at full flight, have the impact roughly akin to a A380 on take off.

And of course that has to be one of the finest collection of turntables and cartridges ever assembled as well. Talk about being spoilt for choice.

Its just fantastic.


Dear Andrew,

You humble me with your kind words, don't know how to respond besides thank you! I had the system when I met my wife so she knew that it was a package deal and she's ok with it. We enjoy listening with the little ones running around. This system came about after a disastrous one that I recently mentioned in the Apogee thread, sometimes lessons learnt from gross mistakes teaches one to look behind doors that you might have never opened before, or at least look before you jump :D! Needless to say, you're welcome here anytime.

david
 

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