A visit to DDk's

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#61
Yes, the Audio Yellow Brick Road definitely goes through Utah, somehow meanders up to Seattle, and then turns around to So. California and a few other places :)
I'd love to have Ked's frequent flier miles. He's flown more in the past two weeks than most people do in a few years
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,906
1,600
113
London
#62
Digital sounds very natural with panels but vinyl sounds more
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,970
499
83
Utah
#63
Sorry Ked, I'm late to the party to help out but you did such a great job with the questions that I didn't feel needed :)! I'll try to address a few things that I feel were left out.

- For most of the process we, Ked, listened to the same few LPs with the same cartridges setup on the different tables. Having the identical tonearm and phono cable combination on every table simplified the process. Ked got a very good handle on the sonic differences of the tt decks. The Koetsu Rosewood Signature mentioned is an older version, we only set it up for Ked to see why I prefer the commonplace vintage SPU over most of the exotic cartridges of the era.

- The Bionors are huge but most decent theater speakers like the smallest Altec VTTs will give you full coverage in any domestic listening environment because even the small oneswere designed to cover several hundred people, if anyone's interested in serious horn speakers Altec VTTs are a great place to start looking, many never change...

- I don't categorize speakers or systems as best for vinyl or digital, a competent system or speaker will perform well with either source type. What Ked heard here was the difference between the natures of analog and digital not a suitable for only one format speaker as suggest.

Bob, heard your Pink Floyd's WYWH :)!

david
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,970
499
83
Utah
#65

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
3,188
80
48
#66
To start with, there is a much larger difference between horns than between boxes. Stats are actually extremely similar except for some differences which are minor in nature. There is no similarity to the sound between Cessaro, Tune Audio Anima, Trios, etc. A guy who likes Cessaro could like the Logans and not the Anima. The variations in bass, tone, everything, are massive.
We are talking about subjective interpretations here, but there is a huge difference b/w martin logans that have added a woofer to a panerl, and say a soundlab. Also, big difference b/w ML CLX and soundlab. Play a soundlab with powerful atmaspheres, and you quickly stop analyzing and get lost in the music.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,906
1,600
113
London
#67
No, that difference is much lower.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,464
2
38
#68
We are talking about subjective interpretations here, but there is a huge difference b/w martin logans that have added a woofer to a panerl, and say a soundlab. Also, big difference b/w ML CLX and soundlab. Play a soundlab with powerful atmaspheres, and you quickly stop analyzing and get lost in the music.
No, that difference is much lower.
What bonzo said :)
 
May 30, 2010
15,508
716
113
Portugal
#69
We are talking about subjective interpretations here, but there is a huge difference b/w martin logans that have added a woofer to a panerl, and say a soundlab. Also, big difference b/w ML CLX and soundlab. Play a soundlab with powerful atmaspheres, and you quickly stop analyzing and get lost in the music.
I will add Quad ESL63 to the mix. I have large experience with all of them and they are completely different sounding electrostatic speakers - even the frequency responses and radiation patterns are completely different. The ESL63 charms by its correctness, rigorous timbre and pinpoint stereo imaging and layering. The Soundlab by its freshness, immediacy and natural sound. Although it is not as neutral as the ESL63, it will remind you more of your great real experiences, transients, ambiance and acoustical instruments will carry you to the music hall. You are spot on - when the system is in tune you easily get lost in the musical experience.
The CLX is a transparent window in the recording with precise dynamics, but I would call it a "transparent box speaker ", in some aspects approaching the Magico Q7. Great exact presence, but does not fill the room with music as the Soundlab's do, and is not as correct as the ESL 63. I must confess that due to its very low impedance in the high frequencies, I have listened to them always with SS.

Retrospectively, IMHO there was more subjective resemblance between the Aida's and the Soundlab's than between the Aida's and the Alexia's!

BTW, all opinions based on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music!
 

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
741
1
0
N/A
#70
The CLX is a transparent window in the recording with precise dynamics, but I would call it a "transparent box speaker ", in some aspects approaching the Magico Q7. Great exact presence, but does not fill the room with music as the Soundlab's do, and is not as correct as the ESL 63. I must confess that due to its very low impedance in the high frequencies, I have listened to them always with SS.
BTW, all opinions based on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music!
We all have our preferences micro, and therefore for my part, I would not quite agree with your considerations of the three main transducers that you reference. I too have many years of running various ESL's including every model of Quad up too and including 2905's and in my own opinion the later models are more complete in the way they render music across the audio spectrum than the 63's, and in my pretty extensive period of assessing another speaker in comparison with the Quad I found the CLX to be superior to my incumbant 2905's in all areas, with the exception of sub 50 Hz , the Quads subsequently traded in against my current CLX Anniversaries.
You are quite correct in your comment regarding the rather tough load that they can present to amplification and I have run with several makes, models and topologies. Ultimately I found the CLX's to perform at their best ( thus far) with regard to midrange tonality, soundstage etc, etc, and with room filling presence you mention, required +150 Watts of good valve amplification, to that end I am currently running with ARC Reference 250SE's.

Whist my experience of SoundLabs is far less comprehencive by comparison to the other brands, for my taste, I found the SLabs whilst comfortable and easy to listen through, exhibited to me a slightly unnatural texture and tonality in the mid and upper range, as compared with CLX matched with an amplifier that maximises its strengths and does not struggle to drive the speaker correctly, as the latter scenario may result in a lean sounding presentation.

Again merely my own experience and consideration.
 

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
741
1
0
N/A
#72
A new review of the ESL-2812, starts on page 174. The reviewer thinks the MLs- "lack the last bit of coherence and midrange transparency that only the Quad has."

http://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_076.pdf
As I said, everyone has an opinion, and having owned 2905's and listened at length to the latest 2912's , A/B'd with their CLX Art's on the same equipment in the main demo room at KJ West 1. The 2912's are a fabulous transducer, and are IMO an evolution in performance upon the 2905's. They do close the gap on the CLX, especially when considering the relative RRP points, yet for myself that margin in performance, same room, ancillary equipment and source material, still remains quite perceivable enough, even in the area of midrange clarity, which whilst close, IMHO the CLX retains its place.

I quite concur with much of the review you reference, his point about the importance in matching the right amplifier with larger ESL's I made myself earlier, however! I do not agree with the his point of view with regard to Quads unassailable position in midrange clarity. I also note that the reviewer makes specific reference to the Logan hybrid models and to my knowledge that particular publication has yet to review the ML CLX.

Anyhoo, let's return to the subject matter of this most interesting thread.
 
Last edited:

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,906
1,600
113
London
#73
Does the 2912 have more bass and dynamics? I love Quad coherence and mids, if they had more dynamics and bass, they would be awesome
 
Last edited:

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
741
1
0
N/A
#74
Well as its your thread bonzo:cool: Yes, I would say with the handfull of tweaks that Quad have implemented the 12's have evolved and improved slightly upon the 05's in that they feel more assured at high SPL's and with large scale dynamic swings. Are they quite dynamic enough for stellar Mahler reproduction ?!?!?
 
Oct 12, 2011
274
11
18
56
Brooklyn
#75
I have heard the 57 quite often in both stock and upgraded editions. WHat that speaker does right can be magic in the right room with the right system. I also understand the limitations and would\have been willing to live with them. I have heard a pair of upgraded/tweaked 2905 and personally thought it was one of the best speakers I had heard in a long time. Can't remember if I had ever heard a stock pair of 2905s but if I didn't love what horns do a bit more I would explore this route.

Beau

Well as its your thread bonzo:cool: Yes, I would say with the handfull of tweaks that Quad have implemented the 12's have evolved and improved slightly upon the 05's in that they feel more assured at high SPL's and with large scale dynamic swings. Are they quite dynamic enough for stellar Mahler reproduction ?!?!?
 

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
741
1
0
N/A
#76
I have heard the 57 quite often in both stock and upgraded editions. WHat that speaker does right can be magic in the right room with the right system. I also understand the limitations and would\have been willing to live with them. I have heard a pair of upgraded/tweaked 2905 and personally thought it was one of the best speakers I had heard in a long time. Can't remember if I had ever heard a stock pair of 2905s but if I didn't love what horns do a bit more I would explore this route.

Beau
I can appreciate where you are coming from Beau, for my part Stats and True Horns are a game of swings and roundabouts and it is my final destination plan to run both, either in one large or two separate systems.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,970
499
83
Utah
#77
I can appreciate where you are coming from Beau, for my part Stats and True Horns are a game of swings and roundabouts and it is my final destination plan to run both, either in one large or two separate systems.
The problem you'll run into is the electronics and what might push you into one camp or another. I went the SET route years ago and why I ended up with horns, as much a I like the SL A1 or Apogee Divas I can't go back to ss electronics. I also found that most of these wonderful sensitive vintage horns are unlistenable with ss electronics.

david
 

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
741
1
0
N/A
#78
The problem you'll run into is the electronics and what might push you into one camp or another. I went the SET route years ago and why I ended up with horns, as much a I like the SL A1 or Apogee Divas I can't go back to ss electronics. I also found that most of these wonderful sensitive vintage horns are unlistenable with ss electronics.

david
I quite agree David, ergo my Evil plan to run with SET's on Horns and my incumbant ARC 250SE's or similar topology for the panel's
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
9,070
1,073
113
E. England
#79
The problem you'll run into is the electronics and what might push you into one camp or another. I went the SET route years ago and why I ended up with horns, as much a I like the SL A1 or Apogee Divas I can't go back to ss electronics. I also found that most of these wonderful sensitive vintage horns are unlistenable with ss electronics.

david
David, yr words of caution are a big reason I'm unlikely to go anywhere else other than high eff spkrs. Once smitten by SETs, this love affair can't be reversed. And my Nat Audio 211s truly insist on me sticking w/them LOL. So, for me it's stick w/101dB efff Zus, or take the plunge to horns. A decision I can take a good long unrushed time contemplating.
 
Last edited:

YashN

New Member
Jun 29, 2015
951
0
0
Canada
#80
Once smitten by SETs, this love affair can't be reversed.
I heard that SET + Full-Range speakers are the best thing since sliced bread.

I think DSD256 and above coupled with those must be something extraordinary.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio convertors (DACS), turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing