Horns....Avantgarde vs. Cessaro

[christoph]

The lower (biggest spherical) horn on the Trio goes down to 100hz.

Thanks, Bill
Does that mean the horn loads down to 100hz only but one could cross over to a subwoofer also at around 80hz?

 

[christoph]

Btw. I really found the posting on the roon Forum
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/showing-off-your-roon-setup-description-and-photos/235/1069

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks, Bill
Does that mean the horn loads down to 100hz only but one could cross over to a subwoofer also at around 80hz?

Hi Chris,

Unfortunately it is very hard to get any data on their website - not transparent at all. I got that from a review in AudioBeat. I suspect that the horn loads to 100hz and drops off a cliff below. It is ~950mm diameter so could easily load to around 100hz.

You could certainly cross a subwoofer below that depending on the order of the network and how much that horn drops off below 100hz. Would need to see some graphs.

 

[christoph]

Thanks again, Bill
I certainly tried the Webpage myself but it is only Show and Shine
Not even possible to download a Manual or Brochure
Have you checked the link to the roon Forum I provided?
The guy uses BD Design Subs with his Trios

 

[Blue58]

Hi Christoph,
Reach out to Tam Lin on WBF, search for Deulund Cap Upgrade. He has the Trios. I’m sure he’ll help.
However, the crossover setting isn’t a rigid point but flexible according to your room and sound preferences.
Cheers
Blue58

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks again, Bill
I certainly tried the Webpage myself but it is only Show and Shine
Not even possible to download a Manual or Brochure
Have you checked the link to the roon Forum I provided?
The guy uses BD Design Subs with his Trios

It was a proper flash room as the northerners in the UK would say lol

 

[asiufy]

However, the crossover setting isn’t a rigid point but flexible according to your room and sound preferences.
Cheers
Blue58

AFAIK, this is the right answer
The XD technology is supposed to help with that task, integrating the subs to the main drivers.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

AFAIK, this is the right answer
The XD technology is supposed to help with that task, integrating the subs to the main drivers.

So what is the lower horn cut off frequency out of interest?

 

[Barry2013]

It was a proper flash room as the northerners in the UK would say lol

It's a long time since I heard that phrase Bill!

 

[christoph]

It's a long time since I heard that phrase Bill!

And what does that mean?
What is the translation for not UK people?

 

[christoph]

AFAIK, this is the right answer
The XD technology is supposed to help with that task, integrating the subs to the main drivers.

Isn't the XD tech in the subs?
And not in the horn section?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

And what does that mean?
What is the translation for not UK people?

It is a very pimping room

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Isn't the XD tech in the subs?
And not in the horn section?

Yes. But of course the sub has its own crossover albeit adjustable like a plate amp. So it gives the end user ability to tune to taste or let a computer derived dsp assist.

 

[christoph]

It is a very pimping room

petty, insignificant?
That's the suggestion of the dictionary...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

petty, insignificant?
That's the suggestion of the dictionary...

Sorry Chris. It means the room looks very expensive and well decorated / styled.

 

[christoph]

Sorry Chris. It means the room looks very expensive and well decorated / styled.

Thanks. It is not always easy for non mother tonguers with you brits

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks. It is not always easy for non mother tonguers with you brits

Yes my apologies Chris.

 

[christoph]

Yes my apologies Chris.

I'm always glad to learn

 

[BruceD]

Hmmm --Just perusing the answers here-I frankly think there is no clear cut winner in answering the Post title.
My own threepenny thought having heard examples of both brands in Shows /dealer demos and private homes.
I'd favour the Cessaro's they come across with a fuller bodied full range presentation, and not as shouty and analytical as the Avantgardes.
But maybe a "slower" source /frontend would benefit from the latter speaker?
YVMV

BruceD

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

Cessaro's [...] come across with a fuller bodied full range presentation, and not as shouty and analytical as the Avantgardes.
(But maybe a "slower" source /frontend would benefit from the latter speaker?) [I added the parenthesis]

[please forgive my poor English]

Interesting, thanks.
Do other members also corroborate this contrast/difference? Or is it so dependent on the partnered equipment (and room) that no generalization can be drawn at all?

(see also question in §2)

---

PERSONAL PREFERENCES
I attend live acoustic unamplified concerts (mainly classical), and I favor full-bodied, natural presentation and "flow". I am sensitive to screechy treble; I like it highly detailed and highly "various" (not a mono-chromatic tss-tss), but natural and perfectly integrated with the midrange (=> no tilted up treble). I like the Raal ribbon tweeter, the Esotar 2&3 (very good textile dome tweeter), but most of all, good AMT tweeter implementations. Compression drivers I know less: I listened attentively to the excellent Thrax Lyra and was a bit puzzled by its compression tweeter (sounds amazingly 'live', but does some "quirky things" I nevertheless could live with, would you offer me a pair of Lyra).
I am not a bass-freak (if cello is OK, I'm happy).

I don't know a lot of horn speakers, but all the ones I heard are fatiguing at best, a bit shilly, or blare at worst [those words are maybe too strong; I am a non-native speaker]. The remarkable exception to this is the gob-smacking Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speaker (which does it all, except deep bass), but is totally beyond my budget ($ K100?).​

UPGRADE TOWARD A CHOPIN?
Therefore I wondered if a Cessaro Chopin with their CNC-milled tweeter horn (made out of a solid piece of wood, like the big 50Kg midrange horn of the Aries Cerat Symphonia), their half-horn/half bass-reflex bass guide and their heavy enclosure, could not be considered as a kind of "mini-Symphonia" (for smaller rooms, as @morricab suggested).

But...I have never heard Cessaro's (you don't find them on every street corner). And there is no dealer in my country (but Germany is nearly next door...).​

The MIDRANGE IS IMPORTANT
Many audiophiles and reviewers talk about bass, image, transparency, etc. Sometimes, the midrange is not even mentioned (!). Midrange does matter to me. I totally second J.G. Holt who said (at a time I wasn't born, I guess) that if a speaker does not get the midrange right, it is useless to go further.
My fear with any 2-way (except Harbeths) is always: where is the midrange? (when I see a 3-way, I am relieved - BUT: I can't afford none of the Cessaro's 3-ways).

For instance, on lieder (voice & piano), a monitor like the little Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary favors voices (very natural and lifelike, full-bodied, fairly expressive with the right amp) over piano (sounds too soft and rounded, lack of speed and attack). But I can live with that contrast (in a 2nd system), whereas I would be very unhappy if a speaker would reverse that contrast, and would deliver all the directness, speed and attack required to reproduce piano in a credible way (fine!), but would play voices leaner instead!​

(the Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speakers, again, subtract nothing of that sheer naturalness on voices, which remain full-bodied, but then gain a breathtaking and genuinely lifelike expressiveness).​

And the Cessaro Chopin are a 2-ways, whose midrange is produced by 2 drivers powerd by different technologies (below 600Hz: Surpavox cone / above 600Hz: TAD 4001 compression driver).
Therefore my question:
-what about the midrange quality of the Cessaro Chopin?
-do voices stand in a plane located a) in front of the loudspeakers b) on the same plane as the speakers c) slightly behind them?
-voices on the Chopin must be highly expressive and articulate, no doubt. But how would you qualify their level of "full-bodied-ness" (if any...)?
-is the tweeter subjectively tilted up?

ROOM
The room is 40 square meter; plenty of space around the speakers (no close rear wall possible, as recommended for the Chopin); former stable; very good acoustics; no neighbors; very silent; low ceiling, but small curved ceiling brick vaults.

ELECTRONICS would not be the one described in my signature (main system in town, small room, neighbors). I could consider going 100% tubes (Jadis?), if advised for the Chopin (for a 2nd system, big room as man-cave, no neighbors)

Thanks.