Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[Legolas]

Yes KingRex, more affordable gear with an element of customisation will potentially gain a lot of traction on forums. Owners need advice and that is where WBF can help (through owners).

I do see sponsors helping though, with advice and experience of various setups. Let's face it, they are going to hear much more system combinations than pretty much any members do. If they share that knowledge, it is good news.

Looking at other forums that have no sponsors, are they really so great? I see a lot of them have low moderation, a race to the bottom, and let bullies take over. It is not a place I would like to spend time.

To moderate a forum (we have an in dependant moderation team, the owners don't do it) is really hard work, the fine line between views. It is fairly light touch, and I think a good balance v the competition.

Back to the OP, no I don't think WBF is worse, it is different, and moving to the future. We take our members very seriously, and value their contributions. I hope members can see the effort put in behind the scenes keeping it sailing.

 

[Iamrael]

I think Myles has joined in for the old “one, two”
Coincidence?
”Hey Myles, see if you can help me clean up on aisle two!”

 

[gleeds]

I see the big threads, Taiko, Lampizator and many others. IMO the owners are active on those threads, and in a good way. Sharing tweaks, tube rolling, asking the manufacturer about updates and advice how to set up the gear.

I don't see this as unhealthy. We need both owners and the brand to contributor, to generate knowledge. I could see Goebel having a similar big thread, if the brand was more directly active, and the owners as well. Traffic and information attracts success, that is how a forum should work.

As regards the Zellaton journey and Steve W, this is similar to so many threads on the forum. Ron's system for example, all great threads IMO. I love reading both, like a journey and good information as well.

So I vote, lets stop bashing the successful threads (by volume) and get these other brands threads going, by encouraging owners of those products to post, as photos, tell us about their system and journey. This is what we all want surely?

Lastly, if we look at other forums, ones that have adverts or no adverts, there are big threads on certain brands, for example UK centred forums tend to have big threads on Naim, Linn etc. The same situation, some brands are very active, others not.

I this appeal to Elliot to encourage owners of Goebel speakers to join in, start a new big thread. Post photos, share experiences. Then we will see this threads fed by the owners of Goebel speakers.

TY Legolas.

I am both a colleague and a competitor of Elliot's. We were both schooled in the high-end a few years apart by the incomparable Mike Kay of Lyric HiFi, so we share roots and generally like the same type of dynamic, midrange balanced, and transparent sound. Although we compete, I really dig Goebel speakers and would own them were it not for my love for Von Schweikert's. Besides, the man has something like a 7 handicap in his early 70s that I am fantastically jealous of!

All is not fair in love and war, but keep pushing E! With your new shop and expanded product offering, with patience, I believe you are poised for a great coda to your long career. Now about that handicap


PS As a manufacturer and distributor, were it not for WBF, I could not have re-entered the industry after a long hiatus, introduced new brands, and all the while enjoy my work more than I ever have. Steve and Ron have both been very supportive over my four years on WBF, as has Julian, the man behind the curtain who works with the advertisers. Client and fellow WBF members have become my friends, and they are genuinely folks I enjoy being in a relationship with. Finally, most professional contributors to WBF are there because the audience has value and genuinely believes in the products they sell.

 

[Elliot G.]

TY Legolas.

I am both a colleague and a competitor of Elliot's. We were both schooled in the high-end a few years apart by the incomparable Mike Kay of Lyric HiFi, so we share roots and generally like the same type of dynamic, midrange balanced, and transparent sound. Although we compete, I really dig Goebel speakers and would own them were it not for my love for Von Schweikert's. Besides, the man has something like a 7 handicap in his early 70s that I am fantastically jealous of!
T
All is not fair in love and war, but keep pushing E! With your new shop and expanded product offering, with patience, I believe you are poised for a great coda to your long career. Now about that handicap


PS As a manufacturer and distributor, were it not for WBF, I could not have re-entered the industry after a long hiatus, introduced new brands, and all the while enjoy my work more than I ever have. Steve and Ron have both been very supportive over my four years on WBF, as has Julian, the man behind the curtain who works with the advertisers. Client and fellow WBF members have become my friends, and they are genuinely folks I enjoy being in a relationship with. Finally, most professional contributors to WBF are there because the audience has value and genuinely believes in the products they sell.

Thanks G

 

[sbo6]

What a clever way to stir the pot, Peter. No, that will not be happening.

Talk about a biased interpretation, geez...

How about, "No, that's not the objective for our upcoming live events."

 

[PeterA]

Back to the OP, no I don't think WBF is worse, it is different, and moving to the future. We take our members very seriously, and value their contributions. I hope members can see the effort put in behind the scenes keeping it sailing.

Legolas, What do you mean when you write “we”? Are you part of the administration team here at WBF?

 

[PeterA]

Talk about a biased interpretation, geez...

How about, "No, that's not the objective for our upcoming live events."

Ron is in a tough position. He wears many hats.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron is in a tough position. He wears many hats.

Sarcasm and snarkiness is never appropriate. I apologize, Peter.

 

[Legolas]

Legolas, What do you mean when you write “we”? Are you part of the administration team here at WBF?

Yes I do the graphics and web coding. I am, also an audiophile, so I need a member account. I don't want to post as Admin for hifi discussions.

So back to this thread, we all good? IMO we are all audiophiles coming from and working in the same space, some are clients, some members, some selling, some brands. WBF's aim its to bring all these skills and energy together. Lets keep it going guys.

 

[PeterA]

Yes I do the graphics and web coding. I am, also an audiophile, so I need a member account. I don't want to post as Admin for hifi discussions.

So back to this thread, we all good? IMO we are all audiophiles coming from and working in the same space, some are clients, some members, some selling, some brands. WBF's aim its to bring all these skills and energy together. Lets keep it going guys.

Thanks for the disclosure. It seems your post was modified by a moderator. Transparency is good.

 

[wil]

First of all who exactly are you? What is your position in realtion to WBF?
If you and some others had bothered to actually read what i said and the questions I asked it has nothing to do with any product. What I asked about is how full disclosure on WBF seems to be enforced selectively, and selectively in only one direction. we as dealers, distributors and manufacturers have to pay to have a forum and have to follow a full disclosure position of who we are and what we do.
I said many times It the right of everyone to say what they want about product, have opinions, express them and discuss them. This is NOT in question. The choice to change the subject to deflect from my point IMO is very telling. I have a forum, I pay for it as asked. I ave the right to express my self and my opinions. I did not question the quality of Zelaton, Stellavox, Goldmund, Taiko, Lampizator, Crital Mass Footers, ad whatever else has been highlighted here, that gentlemen is not the point.
As far as I am aware Ron has fully disclosed his position with his store and the product/products he represents and that is the way it is supposed to work


Elliot, if you really wanted a big blow up over this, maybe you need to just leave? Or maybe do as I suggest and get your Goebel threads alight. I will enjoy reading them and watch them progress, and be pleased about it.

Statements like this aimed at dismissing my opinion, my right to express myself, my right to free speech are truly offensive.
I dont know if you speak for this forum but if you do please send me a full refund and you can take the forum and shove it. I don't back down and I won't shut up. This is not about me but it has everything to do with YOU .
I truly have no interest in participating in a Forum with people like you.

I really don’t understand what the hubbub is about, Elliot?
It appears you’re miffed about Steve making threads about products he feels enthusiasm for? It seems you’re implying he might have some financial interest intertwined with his enthusiasm? (and yes I know about his, now dropped, association with Critical Mass — which was not hidden, by the way.)

That seems far-fetched to me. There are plenty of other threads here where people express their endorsements of products they use. And that he happens to be owner of this forum doesn’t fundamentally mean his posts should be somehow suspect.

You are very enthusiastic about Shunyata and your other product lines. This is to be naturally expected, as you are a dealer. All good as long as responsible dialogue is not suppressed.

 

[wil]

There is another aspect you haven't mentioned. Running a forum like this, that is worth moderated to avoid politics, aggressive actions to members by members, and generally keep the content clean and grown up - takes a huge amount of time and effort. The 2 owners are both avid audiophiles, so not dealers or investors, aside Ron with Clarysis, which I think Ron has struck a fair balance between owner and dealer.

Trust me, the money in the commercial side of WBF is not big. Minus hosting charges, coding cost, bug fixing the server, moderation, there is not much left for anything else.

Agon and others are not better than WBF, most forums are mud slinging matches IMO, many with angry keyboard warriors who argue any amp or speaker costing over 3K is ridiculous.

So sum up, I disagree WBF has gone wrong, and me and Steve, Ron and the mods team are very proud of the work and community we have going on here.

On the big threads and supposed pushing select brands, I disagree. Any sponsor on this forum has all the tools to hand, to make very active threads by getting owners and the brand more involved. There is nothing to be gained by moaning some threads are getting 'promoted' by the owners. It is not true. Steve and Ron post as audiophiles, as sharing their enjoyment of their system build and progress. I value their posts greatly.

Elliot, if you really wanted a big blow up over this, maybe you need to just leave? Or maybe do as I suggest and get your Goebel threads alight. I will enjoy reading them and watch them progress, and be pleased about it.

I agree with the above, except for in the last paragraph (about “you should just leave“)

 

[Joe Whip]

A 7 handicap? Wow.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron is in a tough position. He wears many hats.

And always looks pretty as a picture in them.

 

[Elliot G.]

I said what I said. The information is there for all who want to read it and make up there own minds. I have gotten a lot of calls and private emails all but one in support.

I am not going to have a discussion with every single person that disagrees or questions my statements. This is till the USA and I and YOU have the right to express your self and to foster your own beliefs. The regular dozen can post whatever they choose.
The rules here require full disclosure. I have, and almost every other dealer, distributor and manufacturer has. I am a dealer, I am a distributor, I have posted my products, I do express my opinions, I do sell stuff that is who I am and that will not change. I do not get paid to say anything. I do not get free products, long term loans, accommodations above and beyond industry standards for demo's. What i do is live by the rules.
This has nothing to do with any product or product line. I have said nothing about any of them.
The choice to read, listen and study the information is yours and yours alone.
I appreciate you attention to this matter,
OUT

BTW I will leave when and If I want to.

 

[Kingrex]

I pulled this from another Thread where Wil posted. It made me think on something. What I have seen suppressed many times and has lead to many good people leaving the forum is members that no longer post about issues or bad experience they have with gear. You are only allowed to cheerlead. Anyone who rises up and says they are having issues is shouted down and driven off the forum. That is why all the best members left, outside Ted Denny.

I do not think this is a forum owner or moderator issue. Its a members issue. There are ego tied with money. The members have spent big $$$ and do not want anyone telling them, or publicizing the purchase they made has issue. Just recently on Rons thread he mentioned Boulder and someone immediately slashed out of the water and attacked Ron for bringing up Boulder as an example of what he did not like.

To a large degree, the manufacturer marketing, promotions and cheerleading are all ego driven, consumer backed hype that hides and protects the manufacturer from revealing flaws and deficiency in their equipment. Its not Whatbestforum doing it.
No I am not going to name names and draw out manufacturer. But we all have had conversations with friends who are pissed about something in the purchases they made, yet won't go public. If they choose to do that, then honor them and respect their comments as a reality and possible flaw the manufacturer might need to address. if anything, they may go the Monico route and fix the issues so that their product works better, instead of putting out the same flaw for others to suffer with.

Can you be a little more specific about what you consider to be the atmosphere of “political correctness“ with regards to industry interests?

Do you feel honest opinions are being suppressed?

I’m all for unfettered opining if it’s grounded in some experience and intellectual discipline.
I’ve certainly seen it swing way too far in the other direction when someone with an agenda goes off the deep end, attacking a manufacturer over things with no facts to back it up.

 

[bonzo75]

That is why all the best members left, outside Ted Denny.

lol

 

[Kingrex]

Just go and look at Rons thread around post 8320 and on. Its still going on. Pissed off egos beating down each other, making for a horrible read. Name calling.

Elliot starts a thread blaming the Forum. As in the owners, advertusors, manufacturer. No, its us. The members.

FWIW, Yea, I'm to blame too. I'm to emotional. I jump to conclusions and read into what people write and draw out meaning they don't intend. I really nead to sit back and wait an hour before I hit send.

If there were anything the forum might do to improve itself, it might possibly be a 1 hour gap between time you can post on a single thread.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Just go and look at Rons thread around post 8320 and on. Its still going on. Pissed off egos beating down each other, making for a horrible read. Name calling.

Elliot starts a thread blaming the Forum. As in the owners, advertusors, manufacturer. No, its us. The members.

FWIW, Yea, I'm to blame too. I'm to emotional. I jump to conclusions and read into what people write and draw out meaning they don't intend. I really nead to sit back and wait an hour before I hit send.

If there were anything the forum might do to improve itself, it might possibly be a 1 hour gap between time you can post on a single thread.

sure; just have a bunch of A.I. bots toss around ideas.

forums with humans are going to muck it up here and there. people with agenda$ are going to push them. whiners are going to whine. people in authority are going to take advantage sometimes. influencers will want a piece. people will leave, or get banned, and knowing the whole story will be impossible. if you can't live with all that then sorry, this place ain't for you.

WBF is just less messed up than other forums, and more satisfying to be involved with. with heavier hitters and more serious commitment to the hobby than other forums. more serious discussions. stronger feelings. which is what makes it special. and sometimes get's feather's ruffled.

this thread is a tempest in a teapot. one industry guy pissed at other industry guy's. ho hum. imagine that. not the first time, nor the last time. it's their business and not just a hobby. if they are here, there will be a little trouble about it.

peace.

 

[PeterA]

sure; just have a bunch of A.I. bots toss around ideas.

forums with humans are going to muck it up here and there. people with agenda$ are going to push them. whiners are going to whine. people in authority are going to take advantage sometimes. influencers will want a piece. people will leave, or get banned, and knowing the whole story will be impossible. if you can't live with all that then sorry, this place ain't for you.

WBF is just less messed up than other forums, and more satisfying to be involved with. with heavier hitters and more serious commitment to the hobby than other forums. more serious discussions. stronger feelings. which is what makes it special. and sometimes get's feather's ruffled.

this thread is a tempest in a teapot. one industry guy pissed at other industry guy's. ho hum. imagine that. not the first time, nor the last time. it's their business and not just a hobby. if they are here, there will be a little trouble about it.

peace.

I used to enjoy reading from the group of German vinyl guys on Audiogon. They seems no less serious in their commitment to the hobby, and they had great passion. I think some were also philosophers, so discussions were quite interesting.

There was a time here when hobbyists wrote rather long essays about new gear they had received for their systems. I wrote amature reviews for much of my Pass stuff and cartridges. Ack wrote a lot about his modifications to Spectral and his VPI turntable. People read those and there was some nice follow up. New product releases were also popular. I do not see much of that anymore with speakers like Magico and Wilson, or cables, or turntables. You did a lot of that with your various tables and platforms, etc. Perhaps I just don't see those threads pop up these days. I guess the real difference is the nature of the content shifting here. Change happens.