Goodbye Vivaldi

[microstrip]

I hope I am not committing a newbie sin by resuscitating this thread. I happen to own both an MSB Select 2 DAC and a Vivaldi/Upsampler [Clock on the way but not here yet]. I stumbled on this thread while doing Reference Clock research, and thought I would add my paltry $.02. I've had the MSB in my headphone-only rack for 4 years now. It is, in a word, superb; I have never heard anything better, and I worked my way through a lot of DACs. When it came time to upgrade my speaker system—which I listen to far less frequently—from the PSA Audio DirectStream, I thought about simply getting another MSB, but decided to listen a bit to other offerings, including dCS, Meitner, D'Agostino, Ayre, and Levinson [all pre-COVID lockdown]. I am a network audio guy, so capability comes first when weeding out the offerings, followed then by SQ. I know, that may sound heretical to some, but I refuse to have a "human interface computer" in my listening rooms [much prefer the NAS approach], and I have become quite a fan of Roon. Anyway, when all was said and done, I stumbled onto dCS through a Bartok audition as a bedroom-headphone-only source, and then started listening to the rest of the lineup. I ended up committing to Vivaldi, even though it is an 8-year-old product. Is it better than the MSB? No. Less? Not to my ears, but headphones and speakers are very different. Different? Decidedly. Zero regrets.

The DCS Vivaldi is an 8 year old product, but we should consider that the 2017 upgrade, that included a new hardware board in the upsampler improved the the system considerably. Your opinion goes on par with the ones I got from other users - no system is "better", some people prefer the MSB, others the DCS, perhaps also due to the systems they own.

 

[drunkenspyder]

perhaps also due to the systems they own.

Just so, I suspect. I know there was a fair bit of discussion earlier in this thread about the Vivaldi direct-driving amps without benefit of a preamp. And I expect that the much-overused term “synergy” accounts for the oft-differing opinions in this regard. I liked one comment that was made to the effect of “not adding a Vivaldi to a system, but building a system around it.” I believe that is probably true of almost any high end source. In my case, the Vivaldi excels as a “source with volume control” without preamp. And when listening to a headphone amp like the Mjolnir, there is of course a preamp of sorts built in. Works fine for me. YMMV.

 

[christoph]

Very interesting and welcome to the forum. Can I ask if you moved the MSB Select 2 to your other system to see how that sounded relative to the other DACs you tried? Or have you tried the Vivaldi in your headphone system?

Peter, thanks for ever so often ask the obvious questions I'm interested in hearing the answers

 

[PeterA]

Peter, thanks for ever so often ask the obvious questions I'm interested in hearing the answers

You are most welcome, Christoph. Asking questions is the easy part. It is often much more difficult to listen to the answers.

You know, I don't have any digital, but my friends do. I enjoy it in their systems and certainly appreciate the access to music and convenience. I have also come to enjoy the sound of certain digital products, if properly set up. Anyway, I am interested in the topic, so I ask the questions out of curiosity.

Now too, with so much chat about the top digital players, and the pretty brand-loyal owners, I find listening impressions between DACs quite interesting, particularly when a DAC is described as sounding "like analog".

This goes back a ways, but my first truly convincing exposure to a good DAC was at a dealer listening to the dCS Rossini. From that audition on, I have respected excellent digital. Three good friends now all own the Yggy2. One replaced his Vivaldi with it. I think he had the upsampler but not the clock. He preferred his Yggy2, as do the other guys.

It is all fascinating to me. I sometimes press guys with multiple turntables/arms/cartridges for their direct comparison impressions. MikeL knows this well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter, thanks for ever so often ask the obvious questions I'm interested in hearing the answers

whenever i leave something out of a response.....maybe i was just too lazy.....or had not yet fully worked out how i felt about it.....Peter will many times hold my feet to the fire for the full answer.

which, i suppose, i like in the long run.

it's not hard to understand in the context of his always comprehensive personal investigations.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Now too, with so much chat about the top digital players, and the pretty brand-loyal owners, I find listening impressions between DACs quite interesting, particularly when a DAC is described as sounding "like analog" (...)

Well, like what analog - master tape or vinyl?

IMHO these media sound intrinsically different - the differences between DACs are on a different level of the differences of a top DAC and a top turntable. I am addressing differences between the DCS Vivaldi, the Metronome Calypso/C2A and the Kondo KSL - no serious experience with other top DACs.

 

[PeterA]

Well, like what analog - master tape or vinyl?

IMHO these media sound intrinsically different - the differences between DACs are on a different level of the differences of a top DAC and a top turntable. I am addressing differences between the DCS Vivaldi, the Metronome Calypso/C2A and the Kondo KSL - no serious experience with other top DACs.

Fransisco, It is not me thinking any DAC sounds "analog-like", it is others who describe some DACs that way. I really don't know if they are referring to master tape or to vinyl. I have heard some vinyl source components described as reminding the listener of master tape though.

I have never heard a DAC, that reminds me of good vinyl. To me they sound very different from each other. That is why I made the comment. Such reports peak my interest.

 

[RdW]

I will try to be as technical as I can and specific as you request. I did some measurements in an attempt to be as objective as possible. All things considered I would say the Select is this much better:

View attachment 41382

Nice explanation ...

I am currently auditioning a MSB Reference DAC directly to my ARC Ref150SE. I am not fortunate enough to even think about a Select. So, good to see that the Reference is close to the Select although I am sure if a systems will be geared toward the Select, you might need to add half an inch between the thumb and vinger

It was very interesting to read about the something like 200 pages here on WBF on the digital vs analogue discussion, how reviewers review MSB gear and how it compares to dCS, how vinyl would outperform digital and the other way around, especially comments by those that own dCS and those defending MSB.

I have owned different dCS gear, although not the Vivaldi stack, but was fortunate enough to hear it in several occasions. Good stuff. But as it suppose to be, you want to be objective if you listen to what is best for your ear. I am amazed by the capabilities of the Reference DAC. To me, and absolutely fine if others disagree, the Reference DAC reveals much more information from CD and file that I have ever experienced before, is (here we go again, to me...) close to how I like to experience recordings and I like their upgrade program.

I am hesitating if I should use the MSB pre-amp module directly and move away from my current Pre Amp. The MSB pre-amp module does not match the my current Pre Amp, it is clipping at the input stage of it. Am awaiting the MSB standard output module, that can be configured to 75 Ohm instead of 150 Ohm, to see if that tackles the issue for a better comparison.

But am most likely moving to the Reference DAC.

 

[Billygxx]

I hope I am not committing a newbie sin by resuscitating this thread. I happen to own both an MSB Select 2 DAC and a Vivaldi/Upsampler [Clock on the way but not here yet]. I stumbled on this thread while doing Reference Clock research, and thought I would add my paltry $.02. I've had the MSB in my headphone-only rack for 4 years now. It is, in a word, superb; I have never heard anything better, and I worked my way through a lot of DACs. When it came time to upgrade my speaker system—which I listen to far less frequently—from the PSA Audio DirectStream, I thought about simply getting another MSB, but decided to listen a bit to other offerings, including dCS, Meitner, D'Agostino, Ayre, and Levinson [all pre-COVID lockdown]. I am a network audio guy, so capability comes first when weeding out the offerings, followed then by SQ. I know, that may sound heretical to some, but I refuse to have a "human interface computer" in my listening rooms [much prefer the NAS approach], and I have become quite a fan of Roon. Anyway, when all was said and done, I stumbled onto dCS through a Bartok audition as a bedroom-headphone-only source, and then started listening to the rest of the lineup. I ended up committing to Vivaldi, even though it is an 8-year-old product. Is it better than the MSB? No. Less? Not to my ears, but headphones and speakers are very different. Different? Decidedly. Zero regrets.

I happened to come upon this thread and found the above comment mirrored my own experience. I currently own the MSB Select 2 with the Select headphone amplifier. I previously owned the DCS Vivaldi 2 stack sans transport. I sold the Vivaldi because of a conflict with the local sales guy and purchased the MSB after hearing it at a show. The Vivaldi could be superb but i found that different combinations of filters had to be manipulated frequently with different recordings to optimize the sound. I also felt the Vivaldi could be a little unnaturally detailed or hot at times. While the DCS got more wows from the uninitiated, i personally found it to be fatiguing depending on my mood.
When I was at Munich in 2018 I had the opportunity to hear some moderately priced phones through the Bartok. I was VERY impressed with the sound. While I was unable to do a direct comparison with my Select DAC, dedicated Select headphone amp and Stax 009s, I felt it was competitive at one fifth the price.

 

[Alrainbow]

The day I thought would never come has arrived. My trusty dCS /Aurender front end (DAC, Clock, Upsampler, Aurender W20) has been bested by the......MSB Select II DAC. Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio lent me his demo unit for the weekend. I spent it comparing the two rigs and much to my surprise in my system, in my room, it wasn't even close. The Select II has more resolution, blacker background, sharper images and most surprising of all, the characteristics of a reference class pre-amp. I fed the DAC output direct to the D'Agostino mono blocks and wanted for nothing. Each instrument had greater weight than the Vivaldi output. I spent most of the weekend trying to find a set up where the Vivaldi would compete but I couldn't.

One DAC with simple inputs (ethernet, power) and simple outputs (balanced analogs to my D'Ags) did the job. No upsampling, no filter selections. Vanilla configuration that beat the pants off the system that was the culmination of 15 years of loyalty and upgrades from dCS. I feel guilty I like the MSB so much. In any case, the new Select shows up on Tuesday and I shall be cocooned in my room thereafter coming out only when absolutely necessary.

Set up: Select II DAC with MQA/Roon network renderer, balanced analog output and femto 33 clock module. Two power supply chassis's (one AC, on DC). D'Agostino M400 mono blocks. Magico M3 speakers. Lots of Transparent cabling.

Cincy

Any compares with upsampling
a more apple to apples compare ? for me msb is top level experience but once we upsample it’s good but odd.

 

[Alrainbow]

Nice explanation ...

I am currently auditioning a MSB Reference DAC directly to my ARC Ref150SE. I am not fortunate enough to even think about a Select. So, good to see that the Reference is close to the Select although I am sure if a systems will be geared toward the Select, you might need to add half an inch between the thumb and vinger

It was very interesting to read about the something like 200 pages here on WBF on the digital vs analogue discussion, how reviewers review MSB gear and how it compares to dCS, how vinyl would outperform digital and the other way around, especially comments by those that own dCS and those defending MSB.

I have owned different dCS gear, although not the Vivaldi stack, but was fortunate enough to hear it in several occasions. Good stuff. But as it suppose to be, you want to be objective if you listen to what is best for your ear. I am amazed by the capabilities of the Reference DAC. To me, and absolutely fine if others disagree, the Reference DAC reveals much more information from CD and file that I have ever experienced before, is (here we go again, to me...) close to how I like to experience recordings and I like their upgrade program.

I am hesitating if I should use the MSB pre-amp module directly and move away from my current Pre Amp. The MSB pre-amp module does not match the my current Pre Amp, it is clipping at the input stage of it. Am awaiting the MSB standard output module, that can be configured to 75 Ohm instead of 150 Ohm, to see if that tackles the issue for a better comparison.

But am most likely moving to the Reference DAC.

Use ur own pre amp I don’t own an msb anymore and yes to shelf stuff. But any preamp must drive well into your amps and it’s use of interconnects.

 

[Alrainbow]

What does "undigital" mean? And if someone describes a DAC as not sounding like "digital", what does he think it does sound like? Real music, analog, both, neither? I find these kinds of statements to be very confusing.

A few years ago I heard a demo of a digital system at the NYC audio show. Later that night I heard a live amplified rock/pop performance in one of the larger hotel rooms. The digital demo sounded very much like that live amplified performance: very loud, highly distorted, and fatiguing. I did not stay long for either. Those in charge of the digital demo handed out tickets for the live performance. I found that comparison very interesting.

Was the live show amplified over PA. Lol

 

[Alrainbow]

The select with 8 dac modules is 75 ohms while my Reference with 4 modules is 150. I have not sprung for the preamp module due to concern about whether the passive device will do what I need with no gain for my TT given my Soulution 501's 2000 ohm input impedance. My 721 has 2 ohm output impedance and can output a full amp if needed. I plan to give the module a try in time.

Passive is fir me going backwards but if you balance your setup to make tge msb be past 0 into positive it’s now active.

 

[Alrainbow]

This thread just died?!

How are Select II owners finding their digital versus turntable?

I was also hoping the thread would get to Light Harmonic DaVinci. Is it the final step up!?

I don’t think any digital thread should be to any analog as well. That’s a whole global agenda argument

 

[Alrainbow]

Well, like what analog - master tape or vinyl?

IMHO these media sound intrinsically different - the differences between DACs are on a different level of the differences of a top DAC and a top turntable. I am addressing differences between the DCS Vivaldi, the Metronome Calypso/C2A and the Kondo KSL - no serious experience with other top DACs.

Honesty gets you I. Trouble. No one who has spent for one part in a system wants to hear it’s not gate of heavens opening lol. I have heard many times ultra high end dacs and do feel the msb select 2 is a very very good dac. But like all high end it must be fitted into ones system

 

[RdW]

Oh good. I thought you were saying you where going to become a Bach guy.

MSB is indeed on to something very, very special.

Hi Paul,

Just out of curiosity, are you using the standard MSB XLR output module to connect your MSB Reference DAC to your 721? I’m auditioning a MSB Reference DAC at the moment that came with a MSB preamp module only and am experiencing clipping at the level of the input stage of my 520 preamp. MSB’s preamp module cannot be switched to 75 Ohm. Directly connecting to my amp has no clipping btw.

Thanks

 

[asiufy]

RdW,
Question: when connected to the preamp, did you disable the volume control on the MSB, in the menu options?

 

[Alrainbow]

RdW,
Question: when connected to the preamp, did you disable the volume control on the MSB, in the menu options?

What does disabling do ? I would assume it’s 0 dB so not active and still passive.

 

[RdW]

RdW,
Question: when connected to the preamp, did you disable the volume control on the MSB, in the menu options?

Thanks but yes I did. If fact, this results in the largest distortion. The output voltage @150Ohm is I believe 12Vrms. Turning down the DAC volume to somewhere 85 helps but that is not helping in the dynamics.

MSB even has an article on this on their website
https://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-can-you-avoid-preamp-clipping/

With the standard output module, you can switch to 75Ohm. That seems to be the solution when you use a preamp connected to the Reference DAC

I will report back when the standard output module arrives.

 

[asiufy]

Hi RdW,

I believe the 12V only happens when using an Analog Input. For digital, it's 3.57V max.
But yes, I think you're on the right track with the base output module, as it allows for a "low gain" setting.

alex