"Exclusive" find

morricab

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I have found something rather "Exclusive" that I am quite excited about. I have found a complete drive system for an Exclusive P10 (same motor and controller as the legendary P3) in perfect condition for a quite nice price. I already have a nice 12 inch arm that I can mate with it and the beginnings of a plinth. For a fraction of a mint condition P10 or P3 I will get a great basis for a TT. Photos will come once I receive it.
 
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Solypsa

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I'm jealous already ;)

Always wanted to hear the Exclusive P3
 
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morricab

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a P10 for sale in Oslo...think he looks for EUR 3.800
I got the drive system for much less than that :cool: ... it would have been nice to get the arm as well, which seems to be a well thought out design, but I have a very nice Nottingham 12 inch arm that will work great once I get a plinth of some sort done.
 

morricab

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I'm jealous already ;)

Always wanted to hear the Exclusive P3
I heard one of the last Stable Hanging rotor designs (the PL7 I think) that a friend of mine has. It is a shadow of the earlier beasts but it did sound quite good...however, it was not at the same level as the mighty Yamaha GT-2000, which the same friend bought after hearing mine. Truth is, I don't know if the P10 motor/platter system is better than my GT-2000 (which has compared favorably to TTs up to 25K at least) but I couldn't pass up the chance to find out!
 
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a friend bought a GT-2000 recently and is drawing a complete new plinth in Solidworks to have it CNC´d
I would have sticked close to the original design though...maybe split it between motor and arm
 
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XV-1

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I have found something rather "Exclusive" that I am quite excited about. I have found a complete drive system for an Exclusive P10 (same motor and controller as the legendary P3) in perfect condition for a quite nice price. I already have a nice 12 inch arm that I can mate with it and the beginnings of a plinth. For a fraction of a mint condition P10 or P3 I will get a great basis for a TT. Photos will come once I receive it.

Congrats.

I own an Exclusive P3 for the last 11 years and have owned 2 x P10's. The P3 table is reference class.

The P10 motor controller( EM-10) is not the same as the P3 nor unfortunately in the same class.

The P3 motor and table was a cost no object engineering project by Pioneer and has significant engineering improvements and the sound is very different and quite a step up in performance.

The EM-03 motor unit was never sold separately, like the EM-10 was.

The EM-10 is still very good, but based on the Pioneer PL 70 / 50 series of direct drive motors/ tables.

It will be an exciting project you have and I will be looking forward to seeing the end result.
It will also sound great as well.

BTW, micro seiki cu-180 mat is perfect for the EM-10 platter

Few links for your reference.






Cheers
 
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morricab

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Congrats.

I own an Exclusive P3 for the last 11 years and have owned 2 x P10's. The P3 table is reference class.

The P10 motor controller( EM-10) is not the same as the P3 nor unfortunately in the same class.

The P3 motor and table was a cost no object engineering project by Pioneer and has significant engineering improvements and the sound is very different and quite a step up in performance.

The EM-03 motor unit was never sold separately, like the EM-10 was.

The EM-10 is still very good, but based on the Pioneer PL 70 / 50 series of direct drive motors/ tables.

It will be an exciting project you have and I will be looking forward to seeing the end result.
It will also sound great as well.

BTW, micro seiki cu-180 mat is perfect for the EM-10 platter

Few links for your reference.






Cheers
Based on these Japanese drawings, the EM-03 and EM10 are in one boat and the PL70,50,30 are in another. The drawing shows that the basic construction of the EM10 and EM-03 motors are the same but I am sure you are right that it's not quite as well built as the P3 drive system.
 

morricab

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The
 

morricab

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The

PL70 motor design. please note they are not the same as the EM03 and EM10
 

Direct Drive

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it would have been nice to get the arm as well, which seems to be a well thought out design
Great TT. Enjoy and i look forward to seeing your project evolve. The arms are available from time to time. Japan is the best place. Good arm, some of the wands better than others. They are very cartridge dependent.
 
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morricab

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Close up of the P3 motor (couldn't find another one). As you can see, it looks VERY similar and designwise is the same. I think that Pioneer moved the controls onto the motor itself (the controls of P3 are in the plinth) that allows it to be standalone. The P3 has a heavier plinth and probably a better arm but the motor itself looks nearly identical. Maybe the control circuitry for the P3 is more advanced but I somehow doubt this.
 
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morricab

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Pioneer PL-70

PL70 motor. Very different design with iron poles (P3 and P10 are coreless and slotless motors). If the P10 had this motor I would not have bought it. The later PL70mkII (and PL7L) use a coreless/slotless pancake style motor, which is like the Kenwood L07D and Kenwood KD9010 (and other variants), Yamaha GT-2000 and some others.

Pioneer PL-7L, PL-90 ???????? (Grease player Pioneer PL-7L, PL-90) - YouTube

Pioneer PL7L...this is a pretty nice motor.

Yamaha GT-2000, ????? ???? - ??? ??? ???? ??, ?????
Yamaha GT-2000 motor




Welcome to the Unofficial Kenwood L-07D Direct Drive Turntable Website  Repairs Page
Kenwood L07D motor. Wild staggered wire pattern to have an even more uniform torque.

Brinkmann Bardo - HembioConsult
Brinkmann Bardo and Oasis motor. Not as uniform with the gap in the coils but they use high mass to maintain smoothness.
 
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morricab

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Interestingly, the P3 and P10s motors do not look like any other coreless/slotless designs, which usually have coils of wire in oval like shapes evenly spaced or a staggered star patterns. The P3/P10 motor has the magnets oriented vertically rather than horizontially and the wires I guess run through these yellowish spacers making the ring where magnets are on either side.
 

Direct Drive

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Interestingly, the P3 and P10s motors do not look like any other coreless/slotless designs, which usually have coils of wire in oval like shapes evenly spaced or a staggered star patterns. The P3/P10 motor has the magnets oriented vertically rather than horizontially and the wires I guess run through these yellowish spacers making the ring where magnets are on either side.
They were different. in may respects the closest is the Onkyo PX100M, though that has no magnets. Similar insofar as the rotor passes through the coils on either side. Only the copper platter is the rotor.
 

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microstrip

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The recent SP10R - two sets of coils offset by half coil step.

a1.jpg
 
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morricab

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The recent SP10R - two sets of coils offset by half coil step.

View attachment 73457
i think this is the first Technics TT to embrace a coreless/slotless motor. Of course the actual motor control system is another story altogether...and just as important. However, I think in the here and now, a motor of this type is going to give the smoothest drive. Interestingly, Brinkmann is also using this technology for the motor of their belt drive TTs...apparently they found it helped there as well.
 

microstrip

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i think this is the first Technics TT to embrace a coreless/slotless motor. Of course the actual motor control system is another story altogether...and just as important. However, I think in the here and now, a motor of this type is going to give the smoothest drive. (...)

Yes, the motor control system can make all the difference - nowadays skilled designers can easily smooth the torque non uniformity shown in the picture you show from the GT 2000 literature. Anyway the debate on turntable motors is mostly a religious one - the first big split is between feedback and non feedback types. As far as I remember direct drive turntables always relied on feedback.

I think some people still prefer the belt turntables because it is one more parameter to tune their system - they appreciate picking the best sounding belt and stretching it to the optimum point.

IMHO the most interesting point will be your choice of plinth materials and build technique - I gave up on my project of the Garrard 401 plinth also because there were too many alternatives and picking one would need a lot of research and time. :oops:
 

XV-1

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Hi Morricab

You may be correct as it sounds like I may have misread what my Japanese mate told me years ago. Looks like the P10 may have a trickle down spec P3 type motor used with the PL-70 controls and casting.

as you can see below the specs are different with the motor's.

P3 specs
Rotational frequency precision0.001%
Rotation unevenness0.003% (WRMS, the FG method)
0.015% (WRMS, the Japanese-Industrial-Standard record method)
S/N70dB(JIS)
78dB(DIN-B)
Starting torque10kg-cm
Opposite load characteristicsWith no rotational frequency transition (arm 1,000 duty) to 1.5kg of stylus forces
Startup property0.3 second (33 1/3rpm o'clock)
.
P10 specs
Rotational frequency precision0.002%
Rotation unevenness0.007% (WRMS, the FG method)
0.015% (WRMS, the Japanese-Industrial-Standard record method)
S/N78dB(DIN-B)
Starting torque3kg-cm
Opposite load characteristicsWith no rotational frequency transition to 540g of stylus forces
Startup property0.9 second

The tonearms were very similar on each table, in fact the arm wands I used to interchange them as they were the almost identical on the S wand and were the same with the straight wand.

Although the P10 start / stop is fast - the P3 is absolute lightening in the way it starts and stops - faster than the SP10mk3 as well. Ultimately I sold the P10's as they just were not getting enough use with the P3 and SP10mk3 as the main spinners.

As I found with the SP10mk3, the ability to put a modern tonearm onto it is a godsend as my Thales Simplicity 2 arm is a lot better than any Technics arm and has brought the table up several levels. With the integrated plinth of the P3 - impossible to do unless you want to try out the Audiocraft tonearm which had a drop in adaptor. the P3 tonearm is probably the only weakness in the design when you compare to today's tonearms

to build a plinth with the tonearm of your choice makes this a very worthwhile project if you can get the right plinth design.

keep us informed with photo's.

cheers
 

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