Esoteric audio attributes: Liquidity, Fluidity, Flow, Angularity

[Gregm]

Also the Vyger compared to Pivots. Recently on the same table comparing Clearaudio linear tracker to Kuzma 14 inch 4p.

Out of curiosity, which had the flow -- Vyger /Clearaudio linear, or the pivots /14inch kuzma?

 

[bonzo75]

Out of curiosity, which had the flow -- Vyger /Clearaudio linear, or the pivots /14inch kuzma?

Linear, in this case

 

[hopkins]

Also they are English words, not audio evolved words like black background, noise floor, etc

So what? You are using a word to describe sound, which is not normally used to describe music.

Do you go to a concert and come out saying that you liked the music because it had “flow”? Probably not, unless you were attending a rap concert, which I have a feeling is not up your alley.

 

[oldvinyl]

So what? You are using a word to describe sound, which is not normally used to describe music.

Do you go to a concert and come out saying that you liked the music because it had “flow”? Probably not, unless you were attending a rap concert, which I have a feeling is not up your alley.

As one counter example, my pianist friends and teachers talk about flow in music and especially in the performance of music. I think of flow when learning a piece of music.

In the words of Duke Ellington - It Don’t Mean A Thing If It Ain’t Got That Swing.

 

[hopkins]

As one counter example, my pianist friends and teachers talk about flow in music and especially in the performance of music. I think of flow when learning a piece of music.

In the words of Duke Ellington - It Don’t Mean A Thing If It Ain’t Got That Swing.

Swing and flow are different things (it could flow without swinging). OK, you are right, it can be used. If so, I guess for "Bonzo" it just means that the reproduction (of some specific tracks?) is "realistic"?

Would you use the term "continuity" to describe music? I doubt it - and that is what is expressed when describing sound that has "flow"? Continuity indicates some form of "completeness" of the reproduction - there is nothing "missing". So maybe a characteristic of systems that have good resolution...

 

[oldvinyl]

Swing and flow are different things. OK, you are right, it can be used. If so, I guess for "Bonzo" it just means that the reproduction (of some specific tracks?) is "realistic"?

Would you use the term "continuity" to describe music? I doubt it - and that is what is expressed when describing sound that has "flow"? Continuity indicates some form of "completeness" of the reproduction - there is nothing "missing". So maybe a characteristic of systems that have good resolution...

To spell it out differently….
It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that flow.

Can’t speak for him, maybe he can respond.

Agreed - I would not use continuity to describe music or its performance.

Flow in listening to music on a stereo system is when the envelope of the dynamics, timbre, rhythm and interplay of instruments sounds realistic. Caveat: to me that is. The how is I think related to the power supply being amply sized, the speaker drivers well integrated and the coupling of the speakers to the room allowing the speakers to impart their voice.

 

[hopkins]

To spell it out differently….
It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that flow.

Can’t speak for him, maybe he can respond.

Agreed - I would not use continuity to describe music or its performance.

Flow in listening to music on a stereo system is when the envelope of the dynamics, timbre, rhythm and interplay of instruments sounds realistic. Caveat: to me that is. The how is I think related to the power supply being amply sized, the speaker drivers well integrated and the coupling of the speakers to the room allowing the speakers to impart their voice.

Ellington is also "disruptive", with his frequent use of dissonance, rhythmic and melodic changes...Even a simple chord can contain small variations in timing/intensity that surprises the listener. This is what makes him so interesting.

Anyway, we digress.

 

[PeterA]

I don’t understand why at least one of the words of flow, liquidity, and continuity, are not relatable to some. If one has ever swapped components of different sonic levels, lack of flow/continuity in one compared to the other is easily audible. To not hear this will mean lack of experience.

Also they are English words, not audio evolved words like black background, noise floor, etc

I can relate to “flow“. I would banish “liquidity“. I don’t know what it means so I’ve never used it.

 

[Tuckers]

I'm still trying to get my pointy head around 'angularity'. But I would say that liquidity and grain are intellectual determinations, but flow is a purely emotional experience.

Grain can be difficult to determine sometimes. As things like extra rosin on a bow might increase the graininess of a violin tone, and not be a distortion. Liquidity is easier determined.

To bring it to hardware, exchanging switch mode power supplies with linear power supplies almost always results in increased liquidity and/or decreased grain. (I'm not counting truly superb gear that is built intentionally with bespoke SMPS.) My Esoteric DAC/Streamer is really strong on the liquidity front too, but doesn't go too far.

But liquidity can be a distortion or unwanted in some circumstances. Not to tread on toes, but I find AGD amps to be super liquid, but also that liquidity covers all music and imparts a sameness that I hear after extended listening.

An album I've been listening to tonight that has both liquidity and flow:

 

[PeterA]

Grain can be difficult to determine sometimes. As things like extra rosin on a bow might increase the graininess of a violin tone, and not be a distortion. Liquidity is easier determined.

I never understood what people mean by the term “grain“. It seems like a negative, but I’ve never seen a good definition. What you’re describing about rosin on a bow sounds to me like texture.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I never understood what people mean by the term “grain“. It seems like a negative, but I’ve never seen a good definition. What you’re describing about rosin on a bow sounds to me like texture.

it's possible that your SME 30 was sufficiently grain less as to be close to the level in that regard as your AS-2000. so this issue might not seem to be stand out as a big issue or significant. the SME 30 is/was a formidable tt. but that grain less characteristic is very significant.

"fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear."

when i bought my CS Port LFT1 turntable in 2018 the below quote was on the CS Port website. it was written in 'Jinglish' and i did clean it up for read-ability. later they removed it from the website. and @tima called me out for not attributing it, and others did not really agree with it. claiming degrees of steady are indeed measurable. i don't know about that. i think it requires our human senses to determine success about it.

my Esoteric T1 does use a digital speed control. and we know it is very speed accurate. yet; Esoteric found that adding the G1X clock to the motor drive made the musical flow better but they could not measure the difference. and that is what they said. "we don't know why it's better". listen and decide for your self. which i did and it is better with the clock. it's less processed and clearly more real sounding. i found even a better clock cable (from Shunyata Sigma v2 to Omega) made an audible difference. crazy stuff.

so we don't always have the whole answer with measurements. we have to listen as our ears are the best evidence.

the below quote does somewhat explain what i mean when i say 'grain-less' which is absence of those nano moments of starting and stopping, or minute stuttering, as a non musical distortion artifact over the music, and it's opposite.....grain-less.

we can call it steady, or continuous, or grain-less. our human senses can recognize it as something relatively mechanical as opposed to the absence of a mechanical character.

it why i use my turntable experiences to relate it. power supplies and drive systems vary in how they work and how steady and grain less they can be without being too colored.....and still neutral and speed correct. hard to put into words, easy to recognize musically. it makes significant differences in the refinement and flow and forward lean of the music.

here ya go....

why servos suck.....

"In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. Although this level and cycle are determined by the gain of the control system and the loop speed, the period of the speed control of the platter which is the mechanical system surely comes into the audio band. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value. Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear."

 

[bonzo75]

Not to tread on toes, but I find AGD amps to be super liquid, but also that liquidity covers all music and imparts a sameness that I hear after extended listening.

Many or all attributes can be a result of colour imparted by the component or of transparency to recordings. What you said can also be written for bass, decay, etc for different components.

That is why you need to audition well to check if attribute exists across recordings or differs. Many listeners go by first note or first track played

 

[tima]

I never understood what people mean by the term “grain“. It seems like a negative, but I’ve never seen a good definition. What you’re describing about rosin on a bow sounds to me like texture.

I'll pick up on Mike's post.

It is kinda like the difference between an analog photograph and a digital photograph. I"m counting on your photography expertise to understand. Not about video. To twist an analogy the analog photograph does not have a frame rate. I *think* @Mike Lavigne is saying something like that.

The grainless turntable turns at 33-1/3 rpm. A continuous state, a signal not composed of steps. Whether mechanical devices can achieve this perferction is an unknown to me -- I think what counts is the relative sensitivity of our ears. Teres turntable manufacturer Chris Brady told me "human ears are remarkably sensitive to tiny errors in the time domain - errors (jitter) as small as ten trillionths of a second can be detrimental to quality sound reproduction." Relative differences between tables' stable accuracy can be measured up to the limit of the measuring instruments. Modern instrumentation is typically to the 5th decimal point. What you want to know is peak deviation from 33-1/3. At what point to we sense grain or sense less of it?

Noise, imo, can also introduce its own type of grain. Ime that sits on top of reproduced sound versus inherent to it from hardware.

Grain: You may not sense it until you sense its absence or reduction in discontinuity.. That gets cashed out as clarity, inner detail, improved instrumental texture and a more relaxed effortless presentation. David says "detail, tonal depth and harmonic contrast, sense of realism."

 

[Tuckers]

I never understood what people mean by the term “grain“. It seems like a negative, but I’ve never seen a good definition. What you’re describing about rosin on a bow sounds to me like texture.

Texture is a good word. the gist is determining if what I'm hearing isthe texture of the violin, or a distortion that creates a graininess on top of the note.

 

[Tuckers]

That is why you need to audition well to check if attribute exists across recordings or differs

Exactly, it took a number of listening sessions for me to determine that the 'liquidity' was an overlay on the music, rather than revealing it inside recordings.