EMM Labs, Totaldac

[WLGMuzza]

Good morning / afternoon / evening.

I'm a music lover based in New Zealand. I've assembled a reasonable system to listen to computer based music and streaming via JRiver.
I have come into some money and would like to significantly upgrade my Lampizator DAC. It has been very enjoyable however want to head down another pathway.
There are no stockist of high-end DACs in NZ so I am unable to listen to anything prior to purchase.
Based on extensive online research I'm currently looking at the EMM Labs DA2, or the Totaldac D1-seven or D1-direct.
Has anyone ever done a direct comparison and can describe the differences in sound characteristics, or is able to separately describe the 'house sound' of each?
You contributions are appreciated.
Thanks
Murray

 

[defride]

Looks like there'd be something to try here

CD Players — PARMENTER SOUND

World class CD/SACD & DAC manufacturers have been selected for setting the highest standards in the digital domain, specialists in design and leading engineers in their field. Parmenter Sound is very proud to be the New Zealand distributor for the world's best digital audio manufact

www.parmentersound.com

 

[WLGMuzza]

Looks like there'd be something to try here

CD Players — PARMENTER SOUND

World class CD/SACD & DAC manufacturers have been selected for setting the highest standards in the digital domain, specialists in design and leading engineers in their field. Parmenter Sound is very proud to be the New Zealand distributor for the world's best digital audio manufact

www.parmentersound.com

Yes, they're the NZ distributor for EMM Labs but only bring the DA2 / DV2 in on special order.

 

[BruceD]

I've heard the Emm Labs systems and Total Dac Digital ( but not their new speakers) and frankly its a one horse to the front .
The natural flow of the Total Dac is sonically superior to the "Hi Fi ish" Emms labs presentation which I find not pleasant
and I wouldn't endear for long term listening .
Total Dac has superb musicality--and excellent direct WW selling and support direct from France.

Easily my choice with the two mentioned.
BruceD

 

[Gregm]

The natural flow of the Total Dac is sonically superior to the "Hi Fi ish" Emms labs presentation

Easily my choice with the two mentioned.
BruceD

I totally agree with the above.
That said, a few notes on what I like:
My wife is Australian; I listen and judge by classical; I like dynamics and an extended FR; I want to be tricked into feeling the musicians' energy spilling out of the speakers... My reference DACs for a while now are the MSB Select II & the Ideon Audio Absolute.
Good luck!

 

[Yuen A.]

I've heard the Emm Labs systems and Total Dac Digital ( but not their new speakers) and frankly its a one horse to the front .
The natural flow of the Total Dac is sonically superior to the "Hi Fi ish" Emms labs presentation which I find not pleasant
and I wouldn't endear for long term listening .
Total Dac has superb musicality--and excellent direct WW selling and support direct from France.

Easily my choice with the two mentioned.
BruceD

Hi,

I strongly disagreed with your description of the EMM Labs DA2 as "Hi Fi ish" and "not pleasant"! The DA2 is certainly musical and sounds like the real thing. My references are not someone else sound system but live classical performances in world class concert halls.

Alan Sircom of hi>fi+ (Feb 26, 2020): "It’s tough to say this given the price tag, but what the EMM Labs DV2 represents is the least-expensive way into top-tier high-end audio. Its rivals aren’t those excellent players and DACs in the £20,000-£30,000 range; it’s a £50,000 DAC that forgot to uprate its price tag. And, as many current DACs go for a sound that seems ‘etched’ next to the EMM Labs, its rival group gets smaller year-on-year. The DV2 is more than just another clever DAC; it’s one of the easiest sounding digital devices you’ll ever hear."

Alan Sircom (hi>fi+, Dec 05, 2019): "The d1-core’s dynamic range isn’t quite as remarkable as its naturalness, and this comes across as a lack of scale and solidity to Mahler’s Eighth Symphony [Solti, Decca]. The staging is generally very good, reproducing the huge hall filled with musicians, but the crescendo doesn’t quite blow the doors off their hinges. Other DACs are more dynamic, although many trade range and scale for timbral honesty, and – while I’d like both – I’d go with the honest approach."

 

[Ian B]

I can't speak to the Total DAC or a direct comparison, but calling the DA2 unpleasant, hifi-ish, or fatiguing is pretty far off the mark. Compare it to a DCS Rossini and it sounds downright organic, smooth, and easy on the ears. The R2R vs DSD thing is a personal preference that you have to explore for yourself. To characterize the DA2/DV2: It is more in the camp of refined solid state DACs but balances an immense amount of detail, layering, and spatial information with an edge softness that is really easy to listen to, a distinct lightness to the treble (a fine powder almost), and great transient speed and fluidity. But it doesn't have the same type of direct midrange fluidity as an R2R, and generally doesn't sound as raw. It is also very much dependent on interconnects that are able to reveal the subtlest details and also precision in the treble because these are really key to fully realizing the three-dimensional imaging and detail which define the EMM sound at it's best. With the wrong ICs it can sound overly soft and dull.

Anyway, EMM Labs is maybe more about the most detail, layered, and vivid images you can get without being harsh, robotic, or clinical (DCS) than it is about rhythmic drive, midrange rawness, sounding "analog", or adding harmonics.

 

[CKKeung]

Good morning / afternoon / evening.

I'm a music lover based in New Zealand. I've assembled a reasonable system to listen to computer based music and streaming via JRiver.
I have come into some money and would like to significantly upgrade my Lampizator DAC. It has been very enjoyable however want to head down another pathway.
There are no stockist of high-end DACs in NZ so I am unable to listen to anything prior to purchase.
Based on extensive online research I'm currently looking at the EMM Labs DA2, or the Totaldac D1-seven or D1-direct.
Has anyone ever done a direct comparison and can describe the differences in sound characteristics, or is able to separately describe the 'house sound' of each?
You contributions are appreciated.
Thanks
Murray

I agree with BruceD (#4) and Gregm (#5).

I like the Totaldac more than EMM Lab because IMO the former gives higher musicality.

And between Totaldac's similarly priced D1-Seven and D1-Direct, the latter is my preference.
The D1-Direct is more agile and real-like.

 

[marty]

Good morning / afternoon / evening.

I'm a music lover based in New Zealand. I've assembled a reasonable system to listen to computer based music and streaming via JRiver.
I have come into some money and would like to significantly upgrade my Lampizator DAC. It has been very enjoyable however want to head down another pathway.
There are no stockist of high-end DACs in NZ so I am unable to listen to anything prior to purchase.
Based on extensive online research I'm currently looking at the EMM Labs DA2, or the Totaldac D1-seven or D1-direct.
Has anyone ever done a direct comparison and can describe the differences in sound characteristics, or is able to separately describe the 'house sound' of each?
You contributions are appreciated.
Thanks
Murray

Murray
It's just my 2 cents, but I moved from an EMM DA2 to a Lampizator Golden Gate 2 almost 2 years ago and never looked back. (I use a Taiko Audio Extreme Server). You can read all the reviews you want, but that's obviously not the same as hearing a piece in your particular system. The EMM DA2 is a fine product. IMHO the Lampi has a level of musicality that the EMM does not approach but again, this is likely quite system dependent. You didn't mention which server you are using. If its a simple laptop using JRiver, there are many options looking at a server upgrade rather than a DAC upgrade that may surprise you and allow your current DAC to perform significantly better in your system. Also, You didn't mention which Lampi you are using. A new uber reference DAC above the Pacific is expected from Lukasz shortly.
Marty

PS I've been to NZ twice and would go again just to watch the traffic lights change! Beautiful country.

 

[Ian B]

Server and digital connections play a role here as well. With my own DA2 I am using the EMM Labs NS1 streamer and an Aural Symphonics Optilink cable. I find the fiber connection superior to ethernet, USB and AES, and maybe part of why I am sunk/committed to my DA2 is because even if a generally more preferable DAC comes along, it's one step back with regards to electronic noise and jitter.

I agree with Andy about the realism. I think there are two routes to a realistic soundstage, gear that adds harmonics and space that jump out of your speakers via tubes and distortion, and gear that is accurate down to the tinniest detail, but which requires an ultra revealing system to really dig down and get it.

As a DA2+NS1 owner a reasonable bit of my perspective on this is in justification of my own investment, and the fact that I've always liked DSD sound. But it might be helpful to articulate qualities that I wish the DA2 had as well. Some of these are really hard to put into words, but it does sound a bit refined and could be more direct, and analog-like, more lively and snappy in the midrange, and more authoritative in the bass. I think the tube, R2R and NOS designs accomplish these things to some degree, but every one I have heard trades this for unbalanced frequency response that can be a bit too mellow on top or bottom, and sacrifices overall performance. But as others have said, that might be a tradeoff between hifi and "musical" to your ears.

 

[Yuen A.]

Hi folks,

I can certainly agree with Marty that the level of musicality is system dependent. I would also like to point out that Marty's DA2 was a V1 and not a V2 and the improvements in the V2 are dramatic. Regarding Ian's wish for more authoritative bass in the DA2, I think the problem lies not in the DA2 but elsewhere in one's sound system. The bass of my sound system sounded like the real thing! The key to authoritative bass is resonance control (racks, footers, etc.).

There are significant differences in the construction of tube and transistor amplifiers that contribute to the sound. Tube amplifiers require output transformers to match the high impedance of the power tubes to the low impedance of the loudspeaker. The transformer has a natural high-frequency roll-off that makes the tube amplifier sound warmer. When the amplifier is overdriven the transformer also has a point of core saturation that provides a form of compression. This gives the tube amplifier sustain and a singing quality that sounds very musical. The harmonic content of an overdriven tube amplifier consists primarily of 2nd order and 3rd order harmonics with some 4th order harmonics. Musically the 2nd harmonic is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The 3rd harmonic is a musical 12th. Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong 3rd harmonic makes the tone softer.

 

[dorch]

I have been a TotalDac customer for many years having originally selected the D1-dual as a replacement for my previous Audio Synthesis DAX. At that time I listened to several other DACs (though nothing from the EMM range) and read lots of reviews . I found 6Moons and MonoandStereo very helpful. Since then I have upgraded with TotalDac several times and am now greatly enjoying the D1-Direct. What has always impressed me is the musicality, timing, access to detail and "organic" quality of the TotalDac range. What has also been good is the responsiveness of Vincent Brient for questions and advice, his willingness to ship things for a trial, his appetite to continuously improve his products, and the option always to upgrade the TotalDac that you have to another model. For me, the D1-Direct is the best TotalDac that I have experienced and it is improved even further by the D1-Drivers which provide an excellent interface to amplifiers.
I do agree with other comments in this thread that, with this quality of DAC, everything else matters too - interconnects, power supplies, and so on. As I continue to improve other elements of my system, the D1-Direct has always "stepped-up" to deliver even more of the natural, engaging quality that I enjoy.

 

[WLGMuzza]

Thanks everyone for the input. Really sounds like either option could be an improvement on what I currently have (5x year + Lampi L5/G5). I'm using Jriver currently, into a VTLS400 into Genesis G2Jrs. A server upgrade is indeed on the cards.

I must admit to being concerned about the Audio Science Review thread on the Totaldac, so wondering if dropping 25K Euro is a wise idea. Like I say, I can't audition without paying for either the Totaldac or DA2 first.

Deep sigh.......

 

[Ian B]

Thanks everyone for the input. Really sounds like either option could be an improvement on what I currently have (5x year + Lampi L5/G5). I'm using Jriver currently, into a VTLS400 into Genesis G2Jrs. A server upgrade is indeed on the cards.

I must admit to being concerned about the Audio Science Review thread on the Totaldac, so wondering if dropping 25K Euro is a wise idea. Like I say, I can't audition without paying for either the Totaldac or DA2 first.

Deep sigh.......

To be fair, the Lampi would probably test very poorly with ASR as well, along with many other excellent DACs. I've only spent time around one Lampi, from the DSD only days, and I loved it. It really reminded me of hearing things from the mixing board of analog tape recording session. All those measurements really tell you is what style of DAC it is, that it has a lot of coloration or distortion, but not the ultimate quality of the reproduction or musicality. The DA2 measures a lot better for sure, but it is a different type of sound from the d-1, less extra color, but both are very linear at the core and well built. ASR hated the PS Audio Directstream, but I found it pretty enjoyable for the price range.

Marty is right that upgrading your server and digital connections will yield big benefits that may surprise you even with your current DAC. That can also be a very deep habit hole...

 

[CKKeung]

To be fair, the Lampi would probably test very poorly with ASR as well, along with many other excellent DACs.

Agree!
I often read the reviews on ASR too.
But I always remember that we audiophiles listen with our own ears, not with measuring equipment.

 

[marty]

Hi folks,

I can certainly agree with Marty that the level of musicality is system dependent. I would also like to point out that Marty's DA2 was a V1 and not a V2 and the improvements in the V2 are dramatic. Regarding Ian's wish for more authoritative bass in the DA2, I think the problem lies not in the DA2 but elsewhere in one's sound system. The bass of my sound system sounded like the real thing! The key to authoritative bass is resonance control (racks, footers, etc.).

There are significant differences in the construction of tube and transistor amplifiers that contribute to the sound. Tube amplifiers require output transformers to match the high impedance of the power tubes to the low impedance of the loudspeaker. The transformer has a natural high-frequency roll-off that makes the tube amplifier sound warmer. When the amplifier is overdriven the transformer also has a point of core saturation that provides a form of compression. This gives the tube amplifier sustain and a singing quality that sounds very musical. The harmonic content of an overdriven tube amplifier consists primarily of 2nd order and 3rd order harmonics with some 4th order harmonics. Musically the 2nd harmonic is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The 3rd harmonic is a musical 12th. Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong 3rd harmonic makes the tone softer.

Yuen, almost correct. I actually had one of the first the first V2's when the main analog board was replaced due to a DC offset issue. Agree with everything else you said regarding system matching considerations. As you know, I enjoyed the EMM when I used a VTL 7.5 III preamp but when I moved to the Soulution 725 preamp, the Lampi GG2 was the better match for my system.

 

[Yuen A.]

Yuen, almost correct. I actually had one of the first the first V2's when the main analog board was replaced due to a DC offset issue. Agree with everything else you said regarding system matching considerations. As you know, I enjoyed the EMM when I used a VTL 7.5 III preamp but when I moved to the Soulution 725 preamp, the Lampi GG2 was the better match for my system.

Hi Marty,

Always happy to hear from you. Thank you for your kindly response!

From Fred Crowder:

Literally all major hardware systems in the DA2 are replaced as part of this upgrade. Following all the hardware changes, the audio signal processing in the MDAT2 DSP has been enhanced in the digital domain. Along with these improvements and refinements, EMM has also added functional upgrades, including MQA support, NS1 Streamer integration, and the newly implemented software selectable gain system.

The main update is EMM’s revised DAC and analog systems. The updates include their design of EMM’s discrete 16xDSD DACs as well as a new analog output stage. These upgrades bring greater transparency, a deeper soundstage and increased dynamics to the DA2’s performance. The new analog stage incorporates the optimized HIGH/LOW gain system, which is switchable in software. This new feature allows users to choose an output level that better fits their system.

 

[dorch]

just a general comment about testing , whichever DAC you end up choosing - you might want to look at what ifi.audio say about test equipment and its influence on test results. As someone else has mentioned - testing might give some information but it is listening that really matters. We've still got a very long way to go in order to understand the relationship between test results and what we hear i.e. what's important to test and what's not really relevant for our enjoyment of music. Definitely worth talking directly to each supplier directly if you can , so that they can give you their own view on development approaches and testing.

 

[WLGMuzza]

Thanks to everyone that provided input. After much consideration of the excellent advice, which it might seem I've ignored but haven't, I've ordered a Kassandra Ref Mk2. Should be here in 4-6 weeks.

Cheers

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Thanks to everyone that provided input. After much consideration of the excellent advice, which it might seem I've ignored but haven't, I've ordered a Kassandra Ref Mk2. Should be here in 4-6 weeks.

Cheers

Congratulations on the new kassandra.