Documentary: Making a Murderer - Part Deux | October 19, 2018 - Netflix

[NorthStar]

Wisconsin, free guns for Christmas presents; that sounds good...Peace on Earth.

HORTONVILLE, Wis. -- "A Wisconsin company is giving employees revolvers for Christmas in what it says is an effort to promote personal safety and team building.

Ben Wolfgram is co-owner of Hortonville-based BenShot. The company makes novelty glassware embedded with a bullet to make it look like it's been shot."

Today's news, yes sir. Hope they find Teresa's real killer(s) before Christmas.

 

[Swede]

I find it incredible that ANYONE would have the foresight to drain and save her blood before disposing of her body. It implies a criminal intelligence well beyond common experience. Certainly far more than any displayed by anyone in the cases so far.



I don't believe they know who the real killers are. i do believe they settled on Avery and stopped looking because it was subconsciously in their interest. And then some went about planting evidence so "We'll make SURE he won't get away with it THIIS time." Just like the bloody glove in OJ's trial. (Except I believe OJ was guilty.)



4 or 5.

Am new here but am riveted by the Avery case. Haven't watched all of Season 2 yet but believe Steve has been set up ("Just because we KNOW he's guilty and want to make sure gets convicted."). I do have a problem. If Teresa's blood in the back of the Rav4 (on the door) was planted (and not from her body being thrown in) then --- Where did her blood com from?

Her body was cremated after she was murdered which would have destroyed all her blood. Where would someone get her blood to plant days later?

Apparently the theory is that Teresa was bludgeoned at the back of the Rav4 with a hammer or something and it really was her blood spatter, not planted at all.

 

[NorthStar]

It appears that she was killed and her blood is inside the rear of her SUV.
If Steven was her murderer, would he have parked her SUV in his backyard?
Or, was it someone else who wanted to frame him, and who could that be?

I don't know how long it will take before all the lies and framing and sickness is all there exposed, but that day is coming.
It's just that many who were involved don't know it yet.

In her Twitter homepage Kathleen said that if you think this case is wild just check the documentary Dream/Killer.
I did, it's only 1 hour and 45 minutes. Unbelievable! There is no redemption, no absolution, no grace for the prosecutor in that case; he is the perfect example of the devil reincarnated on earth. The worst; he is still working as a prosecutor! I don't ever want to come near him, no matter how many angels are with me.

 

[NorthStar]

"Making A Murderer subject Steven Avery is ‘innocent’, and now his lawyer Kathleen Zellner has claimed that she has new evidence that proves it.

The Netflix documentary focuses on the murder of Teresa Halbach and who was behind it.

She took to Twitter to release new evidence she’s gathered from her investigation and reckons that this is the key to setting Steven free.

She Tweeted: “Making a Murderer watchers, listen up. I’m going to walk you through what I’ve learned through my investigation that you didn’t see in the show.

“1 . On 10/31/05, Scott Tadych visited Bobby at the Avery salvage yard (ASY) around noon.

“2. After Teresa (TH) called the Dassey landline for directions, our suspect contacted her back with the Dassey address.

“3. Teresa arrived at the ASY around 2:30–2:31 p.m. on 10/31/05. Only Bobby and Steven saw her. After completing her photo assignment, she left & turned West on Hwy 147 around 2:38 p.m. Our suspect followed her. Steven was in his trailer.

“4. Our suspect gets TH to pull over. She opened her car’s rear cargo door to retrieve her camera, was knocked to the ground and struck with an object.

“5. TH was put in the rear cargo area of the RAV4 and driven back to ASY

“6. TH’s RAV4 was spotted leaving the ASY with an unknown driver at 3:45 p.m.

“7. RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05.

“8. 3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone.

“9. Recent investigation shows the RAV4 battery died, so it was replaced in order to move the RAV4 to the ASY.

“10. TH’s body was burned in a burn barrel. Dassey burn barrel had human bones.

“11. 60% of bones and 31 teeth missing.

“12. A witness smelled horrible odor of something burning in Manitowoc County gravel pit the evening of 10/31/05.

“13. The Dassey garage was never luminoled or DNA tested. Bobby hung a deer in the Dassey garage on 11/4/05.

“14. Sikikey note—Body burned at smelter 11/4/05, 3 a.m. Tadych worked the night shift at a smelter facility. His nickname: Skinny.

“15. TH’s electronics were not burned in Steven’s burn barrel; they were burned in Dassey burn barrel.

“16. Suspect knew Steven’s finger re-bled on 11/3/05 because he observed it.

“17. Suspect had access to Steven’s trailer to remove blood from the sink.

“18. Only our suspect knew the blood in the sink was Steven’s and not TH’s (this rules out the police).

“19. Suspect planted blood in RAV4, bones in Steven’s burn pit, and TH’s electronics in Steven’s burn barrel.

“In conclusion, the killer is the person who had the access and opportunity to plant Steven Avery’s fresh blood in Teresa Halbach’s car. Use # AskZellner for questions.”

Woah."

 

[NorthStar]

"Kathleen Zellner, Avery’s attorney who specializes in wrongful conviction cases, sent out 69 tweets Thursday afternoon discussing evidence in the case that she said point to Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych as the 25-year-old Theresa Halbach’s killers."

Badaboom. The chance of having a Season 3 is in my opinion a very fair probability.
Remember, she also took that case pro-bono.
But if you know about the settlements of her past cases then you know that this case is huge.
I cannot put a figure but that young man who was wrongly convicted, Ryan Ferguson, and spent almost ten years in jail was an $11 million affair/settlement. That case too she took pro-bono.

So my estimate for Steven Avery lawsuit, or settlement, could be around between 30 and $40 million. Do you think that Kathleen works for free and she pays for her own wardrobe and private chauffeur and nice chair and desk @ her office?
She said before that she makes more money than 99% of attorney lawyers.
And her job is more rewarding justice speaking than financial.

This case is going to have a happy ending, there's no way that Steven Avery is going to die in jail.
Happy is not the word, justice is.

 

[Steve williams]

Bob
Like you I feel Steve Avery and Brendan Dassey are innocent

I remember you were the same way during season one when you initially said Avery was innocent only to change your mind and condemn him as guilty of the murder.

Bottom line is we don't even know if a judge will grant a new trial so rather than getting on the band wagon let's watch the sequence of events unfold.

We all felt the same about Brendan Dassey but he now won't be eligible for parole for another 20 years all of which also happened with good lawyers behind Brendan

KZ's case is a bunch of hypotheses which tend to incriminate one or two or tree other people as well as many police and DA's. It all makes sense but this is the judicial system

i remain bothered that KZ is pleading her case in social media and is working up a frenzy in people like you. I also believe that she is playing to the camera because win or lose she gains great notoriety. KZ has a vested interest in a season 3 and perhaps this is her way to drum up interest in the case.Otherwise tweeting the way she does is something good lawyers don't do

 

[NorthStar]

Steve it is permissible to change our mind for the better.

True, we are not law experts, but I do have great confidence in Kathleen Zellner.
The more I learn about her the better my life feels.

It is also permissible to discuss and theorize and speculate and question and challenge our own beliefs. That's how we advance and learn more.

The social media like Twitter and Facebook are probably the most powerful tools of the 21st century. You gain public support you open your chances of winning. But Kathleen Zellner is not about winning, she's about justice, and she's smart to put her best odds in her favor. She shared her findings with all the public.

She is not playing the camera, she is playing the corrupted people in the best way possible.
She is not after notoriety, she is after justice well served.

What is a good lawyer? The type OJ Simpson had?

Anyway we live in different times, with more public exposure, less hiding, and it's a good thing.
Kathleen uses the tools of our times...Twitter and Facebook.

 

[Steve williams]

I'm just saying that it bothers me that she is putting on her case via social media. I have no problem with those unrelated to the case to say whatever they want Bob.

I just don't see lawyers tweeting their case to the entire world. To what purpose?

We are not the judge and jury.

What is a good lawyer? The type OJ Simpson had

Well I guess we can all say that OJ was guilty so how can you say that he had bad lawyers. Is it not the duty of a defense attorney to put on the best defense possible

yes I believe she is a top notch attorney and believes in justice. All I am saying is that you don't see top notch lawyers pleading their case in social media

 

[NorthStar]

Twitter is the powerful tool to say that no one is above the law.
Years ago I thought Twitter was a farce, until I understood the power behind.
Kathleen Zellner understands that too.
If you can't fight the system use the system as your tool.
All lawyers do today, most of them.
The purpose is to serve justice.
No, the public is not judge and jury, but the judges and the people from the justice system are.
The public is simply doing its job; showing how corrupted our justice system is.

If I would be a lawyer myself and keep getting brick walls, while my clients are rotting in jail for crimes they didn't commit, I wouldn't have any issue sharing with the media my findings and expose them to all. It's a powerful tool that can help in speeding things up and gathering new info from people who have been hiding for years. Kathleen knows that, her husband knows that, we all know that we get more info when sharing with everyone than keeping it secret and discrete.

Yes, there is a lot of crap too, but that's part of everything else.

Some top judges of the Superior court have a Twitter and Facebook and Linkedin account.
My next friends, a lawyer and a judge of the Superior court both have.

Anyway she's been @ it for a long time so she has good experience and knowledge about the power of Twitter and Facebook. ...And YouTube and Netflix.

We want Steven and Brendan free, and fast. ...Twitter or not.

Many WBF members have no Twitter account, or even Facebook.
Few do, for families, great grandchildren, sharing the sun, the music.
...Others for their business.

Me, it's not important if I have an account on Facebook and Twitter, I'm just a guy.
But I do share with family members and friends in very orderly fashion.
We share travelling pictures and music. Some stuff I stay away from, I ask friends to not share publicly on my main page but privately only, between two..me and the other person.
I am more aware today than I was say ten, five years ago.
I'm no Twitter addict, my page is empty, but I visit the ones who have relevant material for my brain expansion, like Kathleen Zellner's own Facebook and Twitter's account pages.
It is my decision and I'm better off today for it.

 

[Swede]

I'm just saying that it bothers me that she is putting on her case via social media. I have no problem with those unrelated to the case to say whatever they want Bob.

I just don't see lawyers tweeting their case to the entire world. To what purpose?

....

yes I believe she is a top notch attorney and believes in justice. All I am saying is that you don't see top notch lawyers pleading their case in social media

As I understand it, SA has exhausted all his legal appeals so KZ has to resort to whatever other means left to her. Perhaps she thinks if she can stir up enough public outrage the Wisc legislature or Congress will revisit the appeals rules so that cases like SA's can get a fairer hearing.

I do know the Supreme Court at one time was literally inundated with appeals from inmates. 40 years ago I was the named plaintiff in a case heard by the SC and I got interested in that process, At that time the court received over 25,000 appeals every year, the vast majority, something like 90%+, were prisoner appeals. The Court accepted for decision around 500, about 50 of which for oral arguments.

One can easily see the 22,000+ prisoner appeals of that time (many/most without much merit) easily ballooning to several times over in today's world (a lot more people in prison and far longer average sentences). I expect state courts were dealing with equivalent loads. So the appeals rules got tightened up. So much so that legitimate cases like SA's fall through the cracks.

Given that all legal roads are now closed, one has to give KZ credit for staying on the case. Most lawyers would just walk away at this point. Certainly the Avery family couldn't afford to keep her on retainer. Who cares if she is on an ego trip and enjoys the notoriety as long as she keeps working for SA (and the people of Wisc to fix a corrupted justice system).'

 

[Steve williams]

I agree with everything you said. I’m on your side and still feel she is a terrific attorney.and Avery is innocent. I just don’t agree with tweeting her case. Perhaps I am naive Stirring public sentiment is IMO never going to be a reason for a judge to grant a new trial

She has strong evidence that imo is indisputable Present it to the court and let the facts speak for themselves. It is overwhelming.

Res ipsa loquitor

 

[NorthStar]

"Steven Avery is at the BEGINNING not end of the appeal process. Our appellate brief is due 12/20. We have multiple opportunities to overturn this wrongful conviction." - Kathleen Zellner (October 25, 2018)
_____

Twitter plays key role for Steven Avery lawyer

ALISON DIRR | USA TODAY NETWORK-WISCONSIN
Updated 8:12 a.m PST Jan. 27, 2016

"The Twittersphere is fascinated with Steven Avery's new attorney.

Since announcing she was taking his case, Kathleen Zellner has called out the former prosecutor Ken Kratz, challenged evidence against Avery and promoted her previous exonerations on the social media platform.

As of Wednesday, she had more than 83,000 followers — no small audience.

And her commentary on everything Avery might just help her client's case, according to one expert.

"It’s actually an interesting matter because at this point in time, there’s no adjudication pending, there’s no expected court hearing so she actually has a lot of leeway," said Michael Downey, a Missouri attorney who specializes in legal ethics. "I think what frankly she’s doing, which is actually a rather smart approach, is trying to keep the story alive and maximize the amount of coverage and interest and really trying to build her client’s side of the story, which she’s going to have to have to get his case reopened or reheard."

"Dassey has taken his case into the federal court system in hopes of being released. Avery filed motions for relief and release on Jan. 11, but an appeals court decided to take no action on them, according to court records.

Freedom won't come easily for either man, but Zellner has said from the beginning that she's going to get Avery out. Having won 17 exonerations, she is a formidable opponent, one who, in this case, is lashing out and building support for Avery online.

"(Avery) is identical to the other 17 innocent men we've cleared. Won't quit until he's out," she tweeted Jan. 12.

In a tweet on Sunday, she blasted Kratz, a former Calumet County District Attorney, and posted a letter she said he wrote to Avery. Her comment: "Kratz letter to SA (Steven Avery):Confess so I can write book & profit.This bloodsucking gives vampires a bad name."

By Tuesday morning, that tweet had been retweeted 1,534 times.

Kratz book: Really about gardening w/all the planted evidence. 250 hours/14 of us preparing the non-fiction sequel. #MakingAMurderer​

— Kathleen Zellner (@ZellnerLaw) January 26, 2016​

Her firm's Facebook page features articles about her Twitter use, including one headlined, "Steven Avery's lawyer has destroyed the prosecution's case on Twitter."

Commenters are responding with support — a key ingredient in getting any kind of post-conviction relief, according to Downey."

"If you can get, for example, the prosecutor to agree to reopen the case, then there are some avenues available," he said. "But in order to get a prosecutor to reopen a case, one of the best ways to do that is through public pressure because prosecutors, at least at the state level, are usually elected."

"The Manitowoc area may not be willing to jump on the #FreeStevenAvery bandwagon, but he said Zellner's retweeting of thought leaders' outraged posts may help change the stance of the electorate.

And because there are currently no hearings scheduled, she has more leeway to say what she wants, Downey said.

"Zellner has several obligations to be truthful but beyond that she can be pretty aggressive as long as she thinks there’s a reasonable basis for the statements she’s making," he said.

That also means she has to live up to the promises and back up her assertions when the time comes, he said. The approach could backfire if she promises that she can prove something and it turns out she can't.

Among the assertions she has put out on Twitter is that Halbach's body couldn't have been burned in the pit where her bones were found because the heat would have burned down Avery's garage."

"Once she sets up this ‘I'm going to win and here’s why,’ if somebody can chip away at that it really hurts her case," Downey said. "But again, this is someone who, as she says, is successful and has done this before, and presumably she’s being careful about what she’s saying because she knows she’s got to make it stand up ultimately.”

 

[NorthStar]

Steve, there is no doubt that Twitter today is the powerful tool of all trades.
Ask anyone who gain power from it.

But the lady says that she has more legal avenues in her bag, it's only the beginning.
She must know, it's her job.

 

[NorthStar]

I did further research and it's a fact that social media are used by top professional law firms.

"We rated the most popular social media channels based on their value to lawyers. Rating ranges from one to five stars, with five stars representing the best fit. We found that LinkedIn and Twitter have significant professional networking and industry news value. Alternatively, Facebook and YouTube provide the best value for client development activities."

 

[Steve williams]

I did further research and it's a fact that social media are used by top professional law firms.

"We rated the most popular social media channels based on their value to lawyers. Rating ranges from one to five stars, with five stars representing the best fit. We found that LinkedIn and Twitter have significant professional networking and industry news value. Alternatively, Facebook and YouTube provide the best value for client development activities."

Bob

really

this has zero to do with what we are discussing

She might have leeway and keep the interest going but let me ask you one important question. Do you honestly believe that the Manitowoc County DA will agree to reopen the case.I would think tis would have to be a judicial decision.
Any way Bob, you're preaching to the choir about the power of social media.

And as your previous post said "it might backfire on her"

Im done talking social media Bob. You've made your point and I've made mine. Fortunately we remain on the same side in this case.

We all hope justice will be done.

Also understand that there has been even more time past since they finished filming Season 2 and nothing's happened at the judicial process since she has filed her 1300 page request for a new trial. Also remember that it was KZ who decided to request a new trial rather than trying to reverse it on appeal.

The wheels of justice move slowly when it comets appeals from incarcerated inmates
and there is a law that she kept quoting that they are up against which was signed by President Clinton to preclude these events

Finally as to keeping the case alive by feeding the frenzy, she is doing a good job but these are people who know about the case or follow it with a passion. The majority of the world have no clue who Steve Avery and Brendan Dassey are. MY point is this still comes down to due process and hoping for his day in court.

 

[NorthStar]

The latest news on this case are coming from Kathleen Zellner's Twitter account.
The next.appellate brief is on December 20th.

We saw MaM two seasons. From the lady's social media account we learned the nineteen facts in chronological order and under the real light. We now know the two killers, which we didn't from watching Making a Murderer Season 2.

What I believe doesn't matter, I'm just learning like everybody else.
The documentary I've seen it in full, so next for me if I'm still interested in this case, of course I am, is Kathleen Zellner's own social media accounts. All the news media that's where they get the latest news on this case. ...The legal aspects, and all.

We might expire our last breath, all the legal process to a fair trial, up to the highest courts in the country, but we will never give up what first brought us here on this land of the brave and the free, our freedom, never ever. No law is above our freedom. If we do we lost.

Steven is rotting in jail as I'm typing this, and so is Brendan.
What's going through his mind I can only imagine.
What's going through mine is a deep thirst for justice.
I feel much closer to people who were denied justice and wrongly convicted, 1 million per cent closer. I am @ a much better position today than I was yesterday. One billion per cent better.

This is no frenzy, this is knowledge, this is network, this is public awareness.
This is the best lawyer in the country. Due process she's @ her best. December 20, next phase.

 

[Swede]

... Stirring public sentiment is IMO never going to be a reason for a judge to grant a new trial

She has strong evidence that imo is indisputable Present it to the court and let the facts speak for themselves. It is overwhelming.

Res ipsa loquitor

It's my understanding SA and BrD have completely exhausted ALL legal remedies so it's going to require an extraordinary external political rather than legal mechanism to come into play, maybe a governor's type of intervention or state legislation or maybe the federal Attorney General.

Probably the only thing that will get them out is if the real killer(s) are caught, or come forward, with irrefutable evidence. Confessions alone I don't think would be enough.

Just a curiosity, how did someone with a clearly lower IQ than BrD actually get a license to practice law? I'm talking about that pinhead who was BrD's attorney.

Hmmm... I wonder if he wasn't an unwitting part of the frame up as well.

 

[Music Master]

Though it's easy to focus on the fact that the documentary has been very profitable for Netflix, it is good that it has brought to people's attention that unfortunately our justice system is not perfect and innocent people sometimes wind up in prison for very long periods (and executed). Ms. Zellner has certainly done an excellent job, but there are many other innocent people in similar situations as SA and BD. The Innocence Project (see link below) is the group that works tirelessly to get these people exonerated. There are many volunteers, but it is still quite expensive, so if you would really like to make a difference, you should look into donating some money to these guys. I have been donating every year for some time now.
https://www.innocenceproject.org/

 

[NorthStar]

It's my understanding SA and BrD have completely exhausted ALL legal remedies so it's going to require an extraordinary external political rather than legal mechanism to come into play, maybe a governor's type of intervention or state legislation or maybe the federal Attorney General.

Probably the only thing that will get them out is if the real killer(s) are caught, or come forward, with irrefutable evidence. Confessions alone I don't think would be enough.

Just a curiosity, how did someone with a clearly lower IQ than BrD actually get a license to practice law? I'm talking about that pinhead who was BrD's attorney.

Hmmm... I wonder if he wasn't an unwitting part of the frame up as well.

You raise some points that are key to our discussion..

First, the first attorney lawyer for Brendan, the short blond guy with big glasses and a funky smile; he's from the circus and of course he was in it to make sure that his client, Brendan, ended up in jail by incriminating wrongly Steven, with the help of the detective and all the corrupted gang of bozos and liars from the Wisconsin circus system. That, was an easy answer to your wondering.

Now, Kathleen Zellner said that it's only the beginning. If you read about her past and how she won some of her cases you would know that there are always extra avenues when all legal processes have expired. When there is new evidence presented, or the rules weren't followed it opens new legal doors. That's where she excels @. Remember, she is a pro with a team of pro, not a bunch of bozos like the ones we saw from Wisconsin and lead by the despicable Ken Kratz working for the devil crew...detectives, police chief, sergeants, police officers, prosecution team, ...all the bad circus from hell...all guilty of major crimes...planting evidence, lying, fabricating, conspiring, falsifying, etc.

Kathleen Zellner saved a person from jail before by having the real killer confessing.
She has more tricks in her bag than the justice system's own bag. Because she knows the glitches, the bad apples, the psychology, she has the stamina, the intelligence, the tools of the trade @ her disposition, unlimited, and knows how to operate them like a skilled surgeon. ...Including the social media /// Twitter, Facebook, Linkedin, YouTube. She has an army of helpers.

We now know the two killers. The rest is already in motion. December 20th is the next date.
This is only the beginning. Us we just sit tight and watch the master operate.

 

[NorthStar]

I will always update this thread when something important comes up.

Meanwhile I highly recommend watching "Dream/Killer" and learn more about this fantastic woman...Kathleen Zellner.
Twitter and Facebook are very powerful tools for searching for the truth and getting justice done.
In Dream/Killer it's only one example used by the father of the wrongly convicted son. And how Kathleen Zellner discovered more about this extraordinary father who would fight for the rest of his life to free his son. Kathleen Zellner jumped in with full embrace and pro-bono. She had the best fighter partner. This father gave her everything she asked for before sunset. Just watch the documentary, it's short, and this is about our topic...Kathleen Zellner defending the non-guilty who were totally wrongly convicted...like Steven and Brendan.