Documentary: Making a Murderer - Part Deux | October 19, 2018 - Netflix

Feb 8, 2011
20,573
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#2
Only one more episode to go. It is amazing the amount of paper work, time consumption, resources used, the court system, the laws in the State of Wisconsin, the judges presiding, their values expressed in their own words, the extent to which the prosecution team, and it's a big team, and the defense teams would go to the very top without ever quitting. It's a passionate battle in search of the ultimate truth of what happened, and what was done wrong.

It's an educative and human documentary in real time in real life.
We are involved with different classes, sets of values, lies, a less than perfect system with less than perfect people working in and with it or against it.

It goes beyond a simple murder; it's a complete psychological and forensic analysis based on facts, planted or not. It's hard to know what and who to believe @ times. That's the force this case, this documentary perpetrates in the mind's depths.

More to come ...
 
Feb 8, 2011
20,573
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83
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#3
I completed the task, the full ten episodes in only one week...October19-25

It's a Must See documentary; it completes perfectly Season One.
Check Kathleen T. Zellner, the professional attorney, how she smoothly operates with a surgeon's scalpel. She's a phenomenal beautiful smooth operator.

Overall: 99.99

Last word: Don't take my word for it, and even less the words of all other reviewers (they have no clue what they're writing about because they are blind). Just see it for yourself.
☆ Highest Honorable Recommendation - Best Food for the Brain.
Any additional words in trying to convey the essence is futile. The essence is in each single viewer. Only you can take this journey and recoup the fruits, nobody else can tell you what to do, nobody.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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#4
I forgot; there will be a Season 3, you betcha.

This case is not over till it's over. Failure is not an option, even in the highest superior court of the laws of the lands. It is so tempting for me to spill all the coffee beans, there is simply not enough space here to write it all down, WBF site would probably crash down, plus I don't want to spoil what you're going to see on your own leasure time. That, if only you venture into the food brain path, of course.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#5
Like you Bob, this is one documentary that you cannot stop watching. If you watched season 1, then season 2 is a must. It starts slowly with a lot of repetition from season one as it refreshes our memories of last year.I watched the entire 10 episodes over the past 3 days as it just that good. In fact The Staircase doesn't come close to the saga of these 2 men and how they take on the entire legal system

It gets really interesting however when Kathleen Zellner is introduced. This woman has spent her entire career doing wrongful convictions. She is one bad ass attorney who knows her stuff and if I were an attorney from Manitowac County I would be very worried.

Further there is the parallel story of Brendon Dassey and his appeal lawyers who specialize in wrongful juvenile convictions. The story of these two men is simply mind boggling. A very simple family of little means or education.

Watching Kathleen Zellner reenact the entire time line and prove just about everything was either fabricated, hidden or planted by the sheriff's department to put Steve Avery away for life because he filed a $36M suit against the county for wrongful conviction. And the only way to make their case is to involve Brendon Dassey who they coerce a confession from. Watching what happens to Brendon Dassey is without question one of the biggest travesties of justice that one can ever see. I can't say what happens as it will spoil the last episode of Season 2 but suffice it to say had it been any other defendant he would never have been convicted

As Bob says, this is a must watch. To see the 2 of them age in prison is saddening as is watching his parents age and hope they don't die before Steve gets out of prison

After you watch this you just cannot feel anything except that these 2 men have been framed by the police while the real murderer(s) remain at large. The amazing thing about Kathleen Zellner is that she not only tells you Steve Avery is innocent (as is his nephew Brendon) but she also provides alternate people who could have carried out the murder as she files a 1300 page motion for a new evidentiary hearing on new evaluation of some of the evidence

This is truly a thumb's way up documentary and should not be missed
 
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Feb 8, 2011
20,573
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#6
You got it Steve; just unbelievable what a $36 million lawsuit can do to some people afraid of the truth, very afraid. It was their jobs and reputations for life or they had to frame Steven; they chose the later...but karma is coming up, and her name is K. Z.

And K.T. Zellner she is simply formidable. She won't quit till Steven is free. And Brendan has to be freed too of course.
These two men now have been in jail, incarcerated for years and years for a crime someone else committed and 100% framed by the detectives and the cops collaboration. /// A complete fake setup.

Steven did good by writing to her letter after letter after letter. When Kathleen finally replied after a long time, and apologizing to Steven for not having replied to him earlier, a new life was in the making, an eventual free man(s).

The reviews I've read you could tell easily that the reviewers didn't take the time to view carefully this elaborate well master-crafted documentary under the scalpel of the best fighter for freedom. Simply magnificent.

Some big players, the corrupt ones, must be trembling in their underwears now. I wouldn't be surprised that sometime in a future to see couple suicides. But maybe not; I don't think any of those rotten apples have the courage.

So yes, for anyone thirsty for justice and see how it works when you got someone like Kathleen Zellner, this is a Must See.
She is the star, you will see her and her team in action, and what beautiful action it is.
She expose all those scum bags in a very polite way, using the law and the law only, with science and digging under the lies and the walls of fear.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#7
I agree with everything you said until I watched the final episode of Season 2 in which Brendan Dassey's fate is sadly sealed. What a blow against freedom. He has his conviction overturned by a higher state court BUT the Wisconsin AG refuses to release him because of the Haldbach family. This sparks more filings such that a 3 judge panel of the 7th Circuit hears the case and they too affirm the conviction to be vacated. The AG still refuses to let him out in spite of a young female attorney who pleads his case perfectly. The state of Wisconsin then petitions the entire 7th Circuit of 9 judges to hear the case en banc something which is very rare.

To add insult to injury the 7th court en banc reverses the decision of the 3 panel judges of the same court and agree with the AG that his confession was not coerced. Hence even though his guilty verdict was thrown out by one judge and agreed the decision to be correct by the 3 judges of the 7th Circuit, the full 7th Circuit said the confession was not coerced and the overturned guilty verdict was vacated. This left Brendan's ONLY remaining chance for freedom was to take his case to the Supreme Court where each year the Supreme court has over 8000 case applications but only choose about 80 cases. Brendan's team picked the former US Solicitor General who had the most experience in pleading cases to the Supreme Court to represent him.

In an unbelievable twist the US Supreme Court refuses to review Brendan's case and the way I interpret what happened is that he is now age 29 and in jail for 12 years but has his first chance for parole when he is age 49. Bear in ind that Brendan helped convict his uncle Steve with his coerced confession and Kathleen Zellner was concerned that this could pose hardships for Steve Avery's retrial and to prevail


This series is truly a must watch. Whether you believe them guilty or innocent I can promise that once you hear Kathleen Zellner's hypotheses you realize that there has been not only an unsolved murder (even though Steve and Brendan were convicted) and the murderer she thinks could have been one of 3 people who she identifies. Two of the 3 (well all 3) will have you gasping.

I have to bear in mind that this is a one sided documentary and we never know if things are left out as some contend however Kathleen Zellner's digging has produced an entirely different scenario where either of these 3 men could have killed Teresa. She literally dissects the case moment by moment , and carries out experiments to disprove the prosecution's entire case and then files a 1300 page brief asking for permission for new testing

I was mind boggled that the Manitowoc County coroner was forbidden to go to the crime scene by the sheriff who said she would be arrested if she showed up even though the coroner was the sheriff's superior who had the authority to arrest the sheriff. We know now that they forbid her from showing up because that is when the Sheriff's department was on the scene even though they too were forbidden to be there because of the potential conflict of interest. This was apparently the time when all of the evidence was planted to incriminate Steve Avery

I guarantee that this show will have you talking about the criminal justice system in this country

Finally a shout out to the biggest POS in the entire thing and that was Ken Kratz the special prosecutor who continues to look for his 15 minutes of fame by going one the talk circuit shows. I am shocked he wasn't disbarred

I don't ever want to drive through Wisconsin let alone ever visit for fear of being stopped for some wrong doing. You can only shake your head and ask yourself, "how could something like this happen in America"
 
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#8
First, a short article (good read):
https://www.theguardian.com/global/...aking-a-murderer-lawyer-you-want-on-your-side



Steve, I've just read your post above about an hour ago. I did not realise that you had a second post, I thought you had only the first one.

You watched/followed that documentary with great interest, like me.
This Season 2 is a course on the court system, the judge's decisions, the top judges, the stuff that wasn't made available (hidden, faked, concealed) to the top decision makers.

Brendan indeed made his "adios" to all @ the end.
Wisconsin is a gross failure from the corrupted people @ the top.
That created where we are now @. No wonder that Kathleen @ one point said that they don't want her and her team around...go away and let Steven Avery die in jail, slow and peacefully. She is right. But that lady is made of solid steel, no way she'll let them all get away with it.

I am thirsty for justice, for the truth, I want more, and that's why I visit Kathleen occasionally on her Twitter account for her latest. I keep track of all developments. I don't have too but how can I not be hooked? I'm learning more about social justice and all the people involved in the court system from Kathleen T. Zellner than anyone else. ...Same from Brendan's two attorneys.

It is hard to not pass judgements, but it is important to learn more about the facts and let the truth be known so that justice can prevail @ the end. Because if we don't have a proper system of justice might as well just go back to the ages of barbarians. Not in my turf, I'm not from Wisconsin, I'm from the North...Canada. :)

There is injustice everywhere, but this particular case here, this Making a Murderer Part 2, with Kathleen Zellner and team, plus Brendan's team of attorneys...It is fantastic to see them operate.
We are learning real high stuff here, the foundations of our nations, the people, all us, who are part of those foundations. People like Kathleen Z., we need an army of her all across the four corners of the globe, including Wisconsin.

Steve, I wonder if we are the only two solitary members here who watched and discuss this excellent documentary ...

Who killed Teresa Halbach, ...Bobby Dassey, Brendan's brother, Ryan Hillegas, her ex-boyfriend?
Many lies, many planted evidence, many crooked minds, many corrupted officials, many bad apples, it is a total mess that Kathleen Zellner has to play with and show it to the highest elected/selected judges of the supreme court.

It is unbelievable how low some people are; we can name all the players that we know so far, who have been exposed but have not yet been punished by the legal process for the most disturbing deeds of them all; condemn the innocents for life and free the guilty for life. We need to get rid of people like those; they are a national treat to our national security...Ken Kratz, Tom Fassbender, Andrew Colborn, Ryan Hillegas, Bobby Dassey, ...and the list easily extends to another few more dozen names (79 total), just unbelievable the amount of rotten apples in Wisconsin.

 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#9
What is even more amazing is that a killer is walking free as the Manitowoc County police and prosecutors continue to say they have no doubt they have the real killers behind bars.
Kathleen Zellner doesn’t have to prove someone else is guilty but rather satisfy the criteria that whonever she names as potential suspects must pass scrutiny and her 3 suspects to me are very plausible. If it was Bobby and/or Scott can you imagine Brendan's Mom married to one of the killers and still mother to one of the killers just not Brendan.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#10
Plus the ex boyfriend is also a good suspect having moved immediately into Teresa’s house after her murder
 
Feb 8, 2011
20,573
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#11
What is even more amazing is that a killer is walking free as the Manitowoc County police and prosecutors continue to say they have no doubt they have the real killers behind bars.
Kathleen Zellner doesn’t have to prove someone else is guilty but rather satisfy the criteria that whonever she names as potential suspects must pass scrutiny and her 3 suspects to me are very plausible. If it was Bobby and/or Scott can you imagine Brendan's Mom married to one of the killers and still mother to one of the killers just not Brendan.
In the last episode, or the one just before, there was a recorded conversation between Steven in jail and Barbara Dassey with her husband, Scott Tadych in their home. I was thinking that along with Bobby Dassey it wasn't too good @ all for them two, Scott and Bobby.
We know that Bobby Dassey lied on the stand.

Couple days ago: https://heavy.com/entertainment/2018/10/scott-tadych-kathleen-zellner/

They don't want to put the real guilty in jail, it would cost them . . . $36 million.
The money (Steven's lawsuit) is the main reason they are all corrupted to the bone.
 
Feb 8, 2011
20,573
310
83
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#12
Plus the ex boyfriend is also a good suspect having moved immediately into Teresa’s house after her murder
This is where I'm confused the most. Ryan Hillegas is another very good suspect.

Kathleen will find out if it's Scott and Bobby together, or if it's Ryan.
@ this point in time methinks it's Scott and Bobby.
But everyone else also contributed to that cover-up; the detectives, the chief, the police officers, the prosecutors, ...everyone is guilty of fabricating, concealing, manipulating, lying, coercing, ...contributing of protecting the true murderers and instead sending two innocent victims to jail for life. It is disgusting how rotten some people are.
Kathleen said that after Steven is free, she is going after everyone else who are implicated in that big cover-up, a total fiasco where even the judges are turning a blind eye, a case that has nothing but deceptive after multitude deceptive manoeuvres by the prosecution and their corrupted witnesses and the cops and the detectives and everyone else manipulated to their last bone's fragments, and directly to the core of their tinted souls. They are all despicable animals without a conscience, one of the worst kind of animals.

I don't doubt her, K. Z. for a second. She will go all the way with the legal bourreau (hit them all where it legally hurts the most...their jobs, paychecks, reputations, jail terms.

She is a pro, she doesn't let her emotions take over, she uses all her power and solid experience in working with the best science experts in each of their field, with a team of solid young smart bright people, ...she is simply amazing, my guru.

People who are guilty, along with all the ones who lied and concealed important stuff from the previous defence, they all have a very solid reason to live in fear right now. Eventually, and I predict sooner than later, but it doesn't really matter, except to free Steven quick, they all are going to fall like flies...a domino effect. ...Raid.

That lady judge in Wisconsin, she looks like she was bribed; Court Judge Angela Sutkiewicz of Sheboygan County, Wisconsin.

 
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Feb 8, 2011
20,573
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#13
Episode 10 had some important info; I liked the segment with Debra Kakatsch, the coroner of Manitowoc County @ the time. She was dismissed from the stand in Avery's case, and quit her job couple years later.



Prior to Teresa Halbach's murder in 2005, there was another case where Steven Avery was convicted of another murder that he did not commit. The players in that case were no good people either, and some of them are still the same players in this case here.

https://www.postcrescent.com/story/...whos-who-ricky-hochstetler-homicide/82207652/

I don't feel too good knowing that people like that exist. I don't feel to drive in and around Wisconsin, I am scared to meet cops and detectives and be jailed for life! I'd rather drive somewhere else, like in New York City, in a taxi cab.
 
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#14
I finished season two Friday night and I had strong feelings before, but now its just aggravating. Everyone involved in 'prosecuting' Avery has that aura about them that I find immediately offensive and cannot stand to even look at them. The smugness and arrogance of their actions is completely off putting.

This documentary is powerful. I have grown tired of the 'justice for Halbach family' defense that the State has as it doesn't take into justice for anyone but them - real or not. While I hate this argument, I struggle for the family because the wound simply cannot heal now. Yesterday my family and I celebrated my first wife's third birthday without her and even now its tough. I couldn't make it through the party without breaking down. I can only imagine what the family is going through because of the exposure this case is getting. Still, that does not excuse the case if in fact it was a conspiracy to frame Avery and Dassey.

It's hard too to watch the confession. I've taught resource kids (I guarantee you Brendan was one) and their critical thinking skills are often abysmal compared to many in society. These kids can grow up to be full functioning adults and some even extremely successful, but many don't have the intellectual capacity to really think for themselves or do what is in their best interest. The confession played all over his weaknesses in intellect and I find it absurd that the justice system refuses to see it. Then again, I'm sure many are not accustomed to dealing personally with people with such shortcomings and don't really understand how easy it is to manipulate them.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#15
I finished season two Friday night and I had strong feelings before, but now its just aggravating. Everyone involved in 'prosecuting' Avery has that aura about them that I find immediately offensive and cannot stand to even look at them. The smugness and arrogance of their actions is completely off putting.

This documentary is powerful. I have grown tired of the 'justice for Halbach family' defense that the State has as it doesn't take into justice for anyone but them - real or not. While I hate this argument, I struggle for the family because the wound simply cannot heal now. Yesterday my family and I celebrated my first wife's third birthday without her and even now its tough. I couldn't make it through the party without breaking down. I can only imagine what the family is going through because of the exposure this case is getting. Still, that does not excuse the case if in fact it was a conspiracy to frame Avery and Dassey.

It's hard too to watch the confession. I've taught resource kids (I guarantee you Brendan was one) and their critical thinking skills are often abysmal compared to many in society. These kids can grow up to be full functioning adults and some even extremely successful, but many don't have the intellectual capacity to really think for themselves or do what is in their best interest. The confession played all over his weaknesses in intellect and I find it absurd that the justice system refuses to see it. Then again, I'm sure many are not accustomed to dealing personally with people with such shortcomings and don't really understand how easy it is to manipulate them.

Well said

At the end of Season 2 you can only ask how could this happen in America. How could a could Brendan's age and IQ have his sentenced overturned not once but twice only to lose it all in the end to the en banc panel of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. His only recourse was the Supreme Court and as stated of the over 8000 briefs presented to the Supreme Court only 80 are taken and shame on them that they did not take this case and this poor kid won't be eligible for parole until he is age 49.

They said as well that of over the many 1000's of cases decided by the 7th Court only 42 were decided en banc. Could this be the reason the Supreme Court opted against hearing the case

If there are any lawyers reading this can new evidence that will be hopefully brought by Kathleen Zellner before the court to exonerate Steve Avery and Brendan Dassey If she is successful and Avery prevails and is released how does Brendan Dassey get released? Does the State AG release him some how?


I thought Season one was spell binding but Season 2 literally makes your blood boil.

As Bob said we all hope KZ wins her day in court as she is one amazing woman. Does anyone know how she funds these cases other than civil suit against the involved parties. Her cases are not ones that can be presented in a day or two. As she said, she literally investigates every aspect of the crime and her expert witnesses are simply superb. I love her eccentricity in the way she dresses and how she never drives but has her own driver plus a law clerk up front in a big black Cadillac followed by another Black Cadillac SUV with her other law clerks, her investigator as well as her experts. So she doesn't come cheap.Plus the notoriety that this show will get her will make her a well sought after attorney. However as she says you don't want to hire her if you're guilty because she will find that out

The amount of DNA of Steve Avery was so high in a few places that it could only have come as a result of the police rubbing his tooth brush in those areas

The pain that Brendan's mother is going through with the thought that she is going to trade one incarcerated son for another son and husband if KZ is correct. The main thing is to understand that she has to build a case against someone else. She has three someone elses

I will never step foot in the great state of Wisconsin for whatever reason.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#16
It was all a very very bad deed from the get go. There is no "if" here, DSkip. It was all setup, manipulated by the cops, detectives, prosecution and they inflicted their disease to everyone else.
It is a complete travesty of justice.

* Sorry about your wife; I understand the feeling.
Catherine, a good friend, once told me, after losing her Dad; we celebrate the good happy memories we had with our dear departed loved ones. She is right, it's the right and best way.
Our tears are within those memories, our hearts, with the people we love we miss.

The Halbach family deserves the truth, because only the truth will end their pain and constant suffering, and finally have Teresa rest in peace. Yes it must be super hard for all of them, I feel for them too, deep in their heart. It's their own County who failed them, the people who put Steven and Brendan in jail. You can see in their faces they have been lied to, deceived, manipulated to the extreme. It's totally devastating what all the prosecution, the detectives, police officers, Brenda's first attorney did to their fellowship citizens, their community, to Steven and Brendan.
_____

This guy should be banned for life from prosecuting, he is a treat to the security and a disgrace to his community. He is the one who should be prosecuted and put in jail for life without eligibility for parole, ever:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/9rx2xq
 
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#17
I feel similarly NS, but I don't want to claim it was. With the season two evidence uncovered I don't want to make assumptions about who was involved for what reasons because it appears there are many areas that were not covered in the documentary and I have to assume my ignorance.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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310
83
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#18
Very fair and Kathleen Zellner is very diplomatic about it, well controlled; she has a client who is innocent and rotting in jail, she let the facts speak for themselves with interviews, recordings, and carefully analysing the time lapse, from the cell towers, phone calls, time it takes to travel distances, etc., etc., etc. from the closest "players".
* I have a pretty good theory by now, thanks to Kathleen Z.

She puts a tremendous amount of information to us that is extremely useful in making better judgements. We know already that Bobby Dassey lied on the stand.

The conversation (on the last episode, starting @ 17:00) between Barb Tadych and her brother, Steven Avery, plus Scott Tadych, is quite something else.

This is all so twisted and full of very strange characters and players that only a professional like Kathleen Zellner with her team of scientific experts can unravel/untwist it. What a job!

We have two very different worlds colliding here: The people of Wisconsin involved in that sordid affair with characters straight from Halloween, and the professional educated team with diplomas from the Zellner's distinguished academic division.

I'm like you, I don't want to assume too quickly. Kathleen Zellner is laying the cards for us, and rather quite expertly I'd say. She gave us couple alternative routes; Scott Tadych with Bobby Dassey, and Ryan Hillegas. I'm a little biased on the former direction, but I keep my hand on solid ground.

I'm following her on Twitter; I have no choice...I want to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#20
KZ in spite of all of her overwhelming evidence has a huge uphill road to climb to prevail but this woman is as gutsy as they come. She rarely shows any emotion as the wheels in her mind continue to churn.

I still want to know what will happen to Brendan (who has exhausted his every appeal and now the US Supreme Court refused to hear his case) if Steve Avery prevails
 

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