Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[morricab]

A simpler way of putting that is the 2nd harmonic is so close to the fundamental- its only an octave away so innocuous. Similarly, the 3rd harmonic is an octave and a half and also always at a much lower level than the 2nd (if the 2nd isn't present, still at that lower level). So not just masking- but musically Ok (if you have a keyboard instrument around this is easy to demo).

Simpler…not really correct but definitely simpler…

 

[morricab]

Nicely put, Dave. I agree with this comment in bold and do not associate my SET amps with sounding like "typical tubes". On the other hand, a recent visitor who owns SS amps claimed the exact opposite to me, that the sound is easily identifiable as a SET amp. He said he hears the SET distortion, and though he likes it, says that it is a strong flavor and makes everything sound pleasing and similar. We had to simply agree to disagree. My former SS amps made recordings sound much more similar to each other, and in hindsight, I now think they homogenized the sound much more.

And what was the associates experience with live unamplified concerts, practices…whatever?

 

[Atmasphere]

I think the thing with SET amps is they are more psychoacoustically correct vs others in terms of distortion spectra, no zero-crossing issues, no issues with mismatched halves of a balanced amp, etc. so when properly implemented the result sounds very good, it's closer to what the brain expects to hear and in the best cases it's not identifiable as a tube amp at all.

FWIW, if a class D amp employs an output filter (and most do) they are incapable of zero-crossing issues and if they have a benign distortion spectra as a result can have a very good first Watt.

Simpler…not really correct but definitely simpler…

I am interested! How was my statement incorrect? Due to oversimplification?

 

[charles1dad]

Excellent comments/explanations from @DaveC and @PeterA . Mirrors my audio journey and listening experiences.

@PeterA
“My former SS amps made recordings sound much more similar to each other”

Spot on!
I discovered that tubes were actually more discriminating and revealing of nuance and very subtle details. SET being the most adept at this.
Charles

 

[PeterA]

And what was the associates experience with live unamplified concerts, practices…whatever?

I think pretty substantial.

 

[morricab]

I think pretty substantial.

Interesting because I have found that the more live experience the more they tend to gravitate towards the SET sound...there are always exceptions but most of my colleagues who have sufficient funds have gone with SET/horns or at least SET on suitable speakers. I know a lot of guys who dabbled with OTLs (myself included as I owned two different brands) that then gravitated to SET. Those that didn't often sited family reasons (size, heat, children).

 

[MadFloyd]

I might be the person referenced. I've only heard SET in two systems and both were the ML2.0. I remember being very impressed the first time. It was many years ago and I had already owned (and sold) Lamm electronics, but the amps were the hybrids and had a nasty bite in the treble that no tube rolling could cure. In hindsight I'm not sure how much of that was due to the speakers I had at the time. Anyway, the ML2.0 system I heard employed horn speakers (Avanteguard Duo) and of course the other system is Peter's. I've owned both Doshi and CAT amplification (obviously not SET) which I do like, but they have their drawbacks in terms of distortion, coloration etc.

However limited my experience I do think I understand the appeal of SET and how the choice of speakers is ultra important. Again, hard to know with limited experience but based on what I have heard of SET (along with lots of tube amplification in general) and compared to live acoustic music (which I hear often) I hear lots of coloration and a 'sameness' to the music. However in my opinion coloration is always there regardless of what the electronics are, it's just different colors. A lot of solid state sounds gray and tubes either golden or brown. If the presentation remains musical you get past it. I have just become incredibly sensitive to distortion - whether it's in the form of grain or a breakup in the sound and whether it's power, signal, electronics, speaker cabinet or room induced.

 

[bonzo75]

Anyway, the ML2.0 system I heard employed horn speakers (Avanteguard Duo)

the duos are the only speakers I like less than Wilson and Magico, though I admit not as bad as Raidho. That’s the extent of your “horn” reference

 

[Cyrus]

the duos are the only speakers I like less than Wilson and Magico, though I admit not as bad as Raidho. That’s the extent of your “horn” reference

@bonzo75 I haven't been keeping up with WBF lately, therefore the question: I'm assuming the above statement is a 'negative,' correct? If so, do you feel the same way about the Trios/basshorns? Thanks.

 

[Cyrus]

@charles1dad Charles, thanks for pointing me to this thread. Interesting and educational.

 

[PeterA]

I might be the person referenced. I've only heard SET in two systems and both were the ML2.0. I remember being very impressed the first time. It was many years ago and I had already owned (and sold) Lamm electronics, but the amps were the hybrids and had a nasty bite in the treble that no tube rolling could cure. In hindsight I'm not sure how much of that was due to the speakers I had at the time. Anyway, the ML2.0 system I heard employed horn speakers (Avanteguard Duo) and of course the other system is Peter's. I've owned both Doshi and CAT amplification (obviously not SET) which I do like, but they have their drawbacks in terms of distortion, coloration etc.

However limited my experience I do think I understand the appeal of SET and how the choice of speakers is ultra important. Again, hard to know with limited experience but based on what I have heard of SET (along with lots of tube amplification in general) and compared to live acoustic music (which I hear often) I hear lots of coloration and a 'sameness' to the music. However in my opinion coloration is always there regardless of what the electronics are, it's just different colors. A lot of solid state sounds gray and tubes either golden or brown. If the presentation remains musical you get past it. I have just become incredibly sensitive to distortion - whether it's in the form of grain or a breakup in the sound and whether it's power, signal, electronics, speaker cabinet or room induced.

Ian, This is kind of a continuation of the discussion we had about distortion with our friend who builds his own electronics. I think a lot of elements in a stereo system can cause the homogenization of sound. This thread asks a very simple and interesting question, the answer to which I thought I understood a while ago. However, as I have gained experience and learned more, I have completely changed my mind. Having lived with two Lamm amps, I now tend to avoid generalizing about the sound of tubes versus solid state. The Lamm M1.1 amps I had for about a month on my Magicos, and then the ML2 on both the Magicos and my new corner horns totally changed my opinion. I now agree with DaveC's recent comment, a few posts up, that in the best cases, SET amps can not be identified as such. The ML2s seem to have less signature or colorations than other amps I have had, and my various recordings sound less alike than before. I wonder if the colorations you hear are from something other than my amps.

I think we have both changed our opinions over time. As a frequent concert goer, a bass player, and someone who has made his own recordings, I value your opinion, even though we sometimes disagree. Here is what you first wrote when hearing my new system, a year and a half ago. You refer directly to your amps and my new SETs in these comments.

I do not think people agree about Ron's thread question. I happen to think the answer depends on which tube electronics, though my experience is limited to Lamm and what I have heard in friends' systems. I find the discussion fascinating, especially given my recent exposure to new gear and tube electronics in particular.

I heard Peter's new system the other day. I guess it sounded ok. I mean, if you like natural sound and all.

I'm kidding. It was a lot more than 'ok'.

I am highly impressed with the Lamm electronics. I've owned Lamm hybrid amps in the past and I could not get a clean sound out of them in the high frequencies (perhaps that was due to the speakers I was using at the time) and added a Lamm preamp but the sound didn't work for me (at the time) and I sold it. I then heard the ML2.0 driving horn speakers (albeit with a non-Lamm preamp) and was extremely impressed; so much so that I started hunting for a pair of ML2.0 amps but could never find them (and research seemed to indicate that the ML2.1 and ML2.2 weren't as good). I eventually acquired Doshi tube electronics - which gave me a taste but wasn't the same. So I was pretty excited when I learned Peter was getting ML2.0s and I would get to hear this amp again.

Visiting Peter was almost surreal. Everything had changed - heck even the room seemed to be larger. The following is a bit of a cut-and-paste job from an email to Peter and local audiophiles:

Between the electronics and the speaker (I'm leaving the turntable out of it because I can't speculate on what it brings to the table - no pun intended) what I heard was perhaps the best wooden-based instrument tone I have ever heard - or at least in a long while. I heard wonderful timbre, fantastic body, great transients with deep bass and a great flow.

Acoustic bass had punch on every note with weight and no excess decay or blurring. It was like the bass player was in the room. Cello was great and Ray Brown's bass bowing on the Almeida/Brown recordings was the best I've ever heard it: the high notes remained 'thick' and large with a highly beautiful tone and the low notes were authoritative with great texture. I get great detail on this with my CH amps and I get nice tone with my CATS but I heard a combination of both yesterday. Oh, and the Almeida guitar was also the best I've ever heard it. I'm very envious!

I thought the horn section on Art Pepper was also the best I've ever heard it. Previously it was always too thin and metallic or thick and sluggish but yesterday it had body and sounded effortless and not congealed.

The soundstage is huge. I never realized Peter's room was 16 feet wide (also envious!) and with the speakers in the corners it was a wall to wall, ceiling to floor presentation that did wonders for orchestral music.

Congrats Peter. What a carefully planned and well executed journey!

 

[wil]

I might be the person referenced. I've only heard SET in two systems and both were the ML2.0. I remember being very impressed the first time. It was many years ago and I had already owned (and sold) Lamm electronics, but the amps were the hybrids and had a nasty bite in the treble that no tube rolling could cure. In hindsight I'm not sure how much of that was due to the speakers I had at the time. Anyway, the ML2.0 system I heard employed horn speakers (Avanteguard Duo) and of course the other system is Peter's. I've owned both Doshi and CAT amplification (obviously not SET) which I do like, but they have their drawbacks in terms of distortion, coloration etc.

However limited my experience I do think I understand the appeal of SET and how the choice of speakers is ultra important. Again, hard to know with limited experience but based on what I have heard of SET (along with lots of tube amplification in general) and compared to live acoustic music (which I hear often) I hear lots of coloration and a 'sameness' to the music. However in my opinion coloration is always there regardless of what the electronics are, it's just different colors. A lot of solid state sounds gray and tubes either golden or brown. If the presentation remains musical you get past it. I have just become incredibly sensitive to distortion - whether it's in the form of grain or a breakup in the sound and whether it's power, signal, electronics, speaker cabinet or room induced.

The SET amps I’ve had personal experience with —MasterSound, Luxman,Lampi— all ended up having the same bloomy coloration. I found I prefer the more transparent (and realistic to live sound) presentation of the LTA ZOTL amps as well as the Atmasphere MP3 pre (with Dartzeel amp). Like a sip of cool spring water— no sugar added! I think it can come down to personal preference.

 

[bonzo75]

@bonzo75 I haven't been keeping up with WBF lately, therefore the question: I'm assuming the above statement is a 'negative,' correct? If so, do you feel the same way about the Trios/basshorns? Thanks.

no I like trios and bass horns.

 

[bonzo75]

The SET amps I’ve had personal experience with —MasterSound, Luxman,Lampi— all ended up having the same bloomy coloration. I found I prefer the more transparent (and realistic to live sound) presentation of the LTA ZOTL amps as well as the Atmasphere MP3 pre (with Dartzeel amp). Like a sip of cool spring water— no sugar added! I think it can come down to personal preference.

mastersound is an entry level SET. Did you even roll any tubes to get rid of colour? And was this on your duo? Luxman, hardly known for SETs. Good value SS amp and hybrid. I like Berning it has a place.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

if we are choosing tube amps that seem to not have coloration or dark shading i would list Atmasphere, Tenor OTL's and Berning ZOTL 411/845's that i have heard in my system. those resemble my solid state darTZeel's tonal balance to my ears. the dart's seem closer to those amps than to other solid state (i've listened to) to me.

i'm sure there are a number of other 'neutral' tubes amps that might join the list i've not heard. not sure any with transformers would qualify.

i enjoy a few other tubes amps too, but the others remind me i'm listening to tubes (as i think of it) more plainly.

does any sense of tubes mean there is homogenized sound? not necessarily. case by case issue.

 

[morricab]

I might be the person referenced. I've only heard SET in two systems and both were the ML2.0. I remember being very impressed the first time. It was many years ago and I had already owned (and sold) Lamm electronics, but the amps were the hybrids and had a nasty bite in the treble that no tube rolling could cure. In hindsight I'm not sure how much of that was due to the speakers I had at the time. Anyway, the ML2.0 system I heard employed horn speakers (Avanteguard Duo) and of course the other system is Peter's. I've owned both Doshi and CAT amplification (obviously not SET) which I do like, but they have their drawbacks in terms of distortion, coloration etc.

However limited my experience I do think I understand the appeal of SET and how the choice of speakers is ultra important. Again, hard to know with limited experience but based on what I have heard of SET (along with lots of tube amplification in general) and compared to live acoustic music (which I hear often) I hear lots of coloration and a 'sameness' to the music. However in my opinion coloration is always there regardless of what the electronics are, it's just different colors. A lot of solid state sounds gray and tubes either golden or brown. If the presentation remains musical you get past it. I have just become incredibly sensitive to distortion - whether it's in the form of grain or a breakup in the sound and whether it's power, signal, electronics, speaker cabinet or room induced.

It's interesting you mention grain because I think it has been widely considered that good tubes are less grainy than SS, especially in the highs. Of course there are tube amps that are not well designed (using quite a bit of negative feedback for a tube product) that sound glassy or sharp in the highs (a friend of mine had a pair Octave RM220 monos that sounded like this).

There are actually not a lot of PP tube amps that I think are very good. They have tube flaws and flaws normally attributed to SS amps, which are mostly PP design.

Single ended hybrids or transistor designs are actually quite a bit more natural sounding and have less absolute distortion than many SETs...maybe that might float your boat.

For myself, I have gravitated towards SETs that also have pretty good measurements because, when you go with a simple, no feedback and seriously overbuilt transformers and power supplies, then under normal levels it is basically inaudible low order harmonic distortion.

BTW, Ralph is not really correct about the low order distortion. 2nd order harmonic has been demonstrated to be essentially inaudible, with pure tones, up to at least 3%. This is because the ear itself will make quite a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion but quite a bit less 3rd harmonic and less again of the following harmonics. With music it will be less audible. 3rd harmonic is already far more audible and can be heard below 1%.

The higher orders become increasingly more dissonant and more easily heard at lower and lower levels. What he is right about is that they do assist in masking of higher orders to some degree but it is not a blanket that stretches very far.

The distortion levels need to drop exponentially with increasing order. What is bad though from the pattern perspective is the absence of a dominant 2nd harmonic then 3rd 10-20dB lower in level followed by 4th at 10-20dB lower than 3rd and so on. This pattern follows the ears own self-generated harmonics and provides optimal masking.

Amplifiers that cut out the 2nd harmonic and the even order harmonics are disrupting this natural pattern and this then emphasizes the odd orders, which are less harmonically consonant or even downright unpleasant in the higher orders (5th and beyond). Without the masking of the lower orders and the pattern we expect to hear, the residual odd high orders will impact the sound quality in a highly negative way (gray and graininess, for example). Those colorations are IMO totally unnatural and are not heard in live music...warmth of real instruments is heard live and with SET and so this should be expected in a good recording. Do some overdo it? Yes, but not really good ones.

The golden or brown coloration in some tube amps often has to do with poor or undersized output transformers or inadequate power supplies and occasionally a poor driver stage. When those are properly addressed, there will be natural warmth but not strong coloration per se. Of course you are right that nothing is perfect.

I haven't heard the ML2 in a long time, so I cannot comment on the goldenness of its tonality but I don't think it makes everything sound the same.

You say you are sensitive to distortion but what about the distortions heard in SS amps? These are not consonant with music IMO, which is why extremely low levels of THD and IMD are not enough to purge them sonically.

 

[MadFloyd]

It's interesting you mention grain because I think it has been widely considered that good tubes are less grainy than SS, especially in the highs. Of course there are tube amps that are not well designed (using quite a bit of negative feedback for a tube product) that sound glassy or sharp in the highs (a friend of mine had a pair Octave RM220 monos that sounded like this).

There are actually not a lot of PP tube amps that I think are very good. They have tube flaws and flaws normally attributed to SS amps, which are mostly PP design.

Single ended hybrids or transistor designs are actually quite a bit more natural sounding and have less absolute distortion than many SETs...maybe that might float your boat.

For myself, I have gravitated towards SETs that also have pretty good measurements because, when you go with a simple, no feedback and seriously overbuilt transformers and power supplies, then under normal levels it is basically inaudible low order harmonic distortion.

BTW, Ralph is not really correct about the low order distortion. 2nd order harmonic has been demonstrated to be essentially inaudible, with pure tones, up to at least 3%. This is because the ear itself will make quite a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion but quite a bit less 3rd harmonic and less again of the following harmonics. With music it will be less audible. 3rd harmonic is already far more audible and can be heard below 1%.

The higher orders become increasingly more dissonant and more easily heard at lower and lower levels. What he is right about is that they do assist in masking of higher orders to some degree but it is not a blanket that stretches very far.

The distortion levels need to drop exponentially with increasing order. What is bad though from the pattern perspective is the absence of a dominant 2nd harmonic then 3rd 10-20dB lower in level followed by 4th at 10-20dB lower than 3rd and so on. This pattern follows the ears own self-generated harmonics and provides optimal masking.

Amplifiers that cut out the 2nd harmonic and the even order harmonics are disrupting this natural pattern and this then emphasizes the odd orders, which are less harmonically consonant or even downright unpleasant in the higher orders (5th and beyond). Without the masking of the lower orders and the pattern we expect to hear, the residual odd high orders will impact the sound quality in a highly negative way (gray and graininess, for example). Those colorations are IMO totally unnatural and are not heard in live music...warmth of real instruments is heard live and with SET and so this should be expected in a good recording. Do some overdo it? Yes, but not really good ones.

The golden or brown coloration in some tube amps often has to do with poor or undersized output transformers or inadequate power supplies and occasionally a poor driver stage. When those are properly addressed, there will be natural warmth but not strong coloration per se. Of course you are right that nothing is perfect.

I haven't heard the ML2 in a long time, so I cannot comment on the goldenness of its tonality but I don't think it makes everything sound the same.

You say you are sensitive to distortion but what about the distortions heard in SS amps? These are not consonant with music IMO, which is why extremely low levels of THD and IMD are not enough to purge them sonically.

I appreciate your response.

So your viewpoint is that some amplifiers will 'cut out' harmonics as opposed to adding them, which is an interesting concept.

And yes, most solid state amplifiers have distortions I don't appreciate. My CH sounds incredibly clean to me, but it's hardly perfect when it comes to other aspects of reproduced audio. There are no free lunches. In fact, I once passed on the CH L1 as I thought it was throwing out part of the texture of instruments, but I've since revised my thoughts on that.

 

[Elliot G.]

if we are choosing tube amps that seem to not have coloration or dark shading i would list Atmasphere, Tenor OTL's and Berning ZOTL 411/845's that i have heard in my system. those resemble my solid state darTZeel's tonal balance to my ears. the dart's seem closer to those amps than to other solid state (i've listened to) to me.

i'm sure there are a number of other 'neutral' tubes amps that might join the list i've not heard. not sure any with transformers would qualify.

i enjoy a few other tubes amps too, but the others remind me i'm listening to tubes (as i think of it) more plainly.

does any sense of tubes mean there is homogenized sound? not necessarily. case by case issue.

I think these generalized subjects can be disgussed forever with little or no conclusions. Tube amps are not all the same, just as SS amps are not and to catagorized them all in to one space to me is truly not productive.
If an item is doing a good job it by definition should have as little colorizing of the music as possible. I think many prefer these colors and that's their choice but to catorgorize all of the same to me makes no sense.
If I can immediatley tell that something is coloring my system I don't want it.
We used tube gear at the last two shows and I think in both cases we had really good sound however in neither case would I say becasue they were tubes they were homogenized. Personally I prefer my 10 series gear but I did enjoy and like the Thrax and the True Life Audio presentations at Munich and Capfest.
IMO these are some really old school views that keep popping up onWBF just with a slightly different twist.
I believe you need to take each product individually as it exists in the system it lives within.

 

[Elliot G.]

I appreciate your response.

So your viewpoint is that some amplifiers will 'cut out' harmonics as opposed to adding them, which is an interesting concept.

And yes, most solid state amplifiers have distortions I don't appreciate. My CH sounds incredibly clean to me, but it's hardly perfect when it comes to other aspects of reproduced audio. There are no free lunches. In fact, I once passed on the CH L1 as I thought it was throwing out part of the texture of instruments, but I've since revised my thoughts on that.

your viewpoint would probably change again with 10 series amps

 

[Atmasphere]

BTW, Ralph is not really correct about the low order distortion. 2nd order harmonic has been demonstrated to be essentially inaudible, with pure tones, up to at least 3%. This is because the ear itself will make quite a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion but quite a bit less 3rd harmonic and less again of the following harmonics. With music it will be less audible. 3rd harmonic is already far more audible and can be heard below 1%.

Actually GE demonstrated in the 1960s that people will tolerate up to 30% distortion if only the 2nd harmonic- it is that innocuous.

I was correct in my statement. I did not claim that the 3rd harmonic could exceed 1%! I said it can mask higher orders and is musically OK with the fundamental tone.

A properly working tape machine will exhibit a 3rd harmonic in record mode. An awful lot of recordings were made on tape machines!

Apparently many audiophiles today think tape is quite good. So we can assume that I was correct about the 3rd harmonic.

You've yet to explain how I was in error- unless this is how you did it.