Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

bonzo75

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I am still hoping to discover if emotional connectedness to the music is itself a form of homogenization.
If that's the question then all good live concerts are homogenized
 
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Al M.

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It's because we have given up on Brad, we all know that SET and preferably the brand he represents is ALWAYS the only way to go ! o_O

Yes, always, and how DARE you question his opinions!

You on the other hand Bob still have some credibility as being unbiased !;)

Less biased it seems, for sure.
 

morricab

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It's not that I don't like it at all, but it's just your opinion. I have no basis to judge your opinion, unless I would have met you, listened with you, worked with you. Only then would I have a sense for your opinion.

With no reference or understanding from where you are coming from other than you are a distributor/dealer your opinion is just that to me. It's your opinion and nothing more than that.
Agree and its the same for you.
 
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Rhapsody

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Agree and its the same for you.
For sure, when I make any comment on any component or system it's just my personal observation and my experience. I know from experience that my opinion usually doesn't have anything to do with what someone else might experience in their system/rooms/ears/lives.

Anything anyone says on WBF is just their opinion....nothing more than that.

Even when two people sit and listen to the exact same thing at the exact same time most of the time both people will have different opinions of what they hear.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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What shocked me was what I actually heard across so many systems. The funny thing was that one of the guys I know that was also there from Switzerland reached the same conclusion to me independently from each other. And he has SS amps at home
Mike made it a point to single out tubes as having a sameness that somehow he believed top SS did not do.
not true; here is what i said in post #12 of this thread.

solid state can be guilty of this same thing, but normally it's more in the subtlety, liquidity and note completion area and not big music.

i know that does not fit into your narrative.
After what I heard in Munich this year after a 2 year show break (but heard it again and again over the years at shows) leads me to question this narrative put out there by Mike. I am sure he believes it and based on the way he hears things he clearly thinks the best SS is more transparent and true to the recording I guess.
most of my favorite amps are tubed (Tenor OTL, Lamm ML3, Berning 845 among others). Tenor OTL's were my reference amp. but they exploded, so i needed an alternative. i'm a tube guy who found a solid state amp that gets close enough. i also recently made a significant investment in time and money to acquire a set of tube amps, and borrow another and do a 3 month head to head with my solid state amps to satisfy myself in my own system. and the answers are not perfect for any result. if that is not evidence of an open mind not sure what it might take. if you pay attention you would know i've never auditioned another solid state amp in my system because they don't interest me. i've had a number of tube amps in my system over the years. the darts are always up to the task of being more convincing to my ears in my particular system.
However, this then leads me to one of two choices: A) Recordings are mostly bland affairs with much less dynamic contrast and tonal saturation than real live concerts and the gear just plays it straight or B) They are losing something in their quest for "perfection" that robs them of these live properties.

If A) is correct then I welcome "enhancement" to get the dynamics and tone of the real thing. If B) is correct, then I welcome gear that extracts more from the recording and shows the greatest contrast in those recordings. Either way, I kind of end up at the same place with the same feelings about what I am hearing.

I could have literally sat all day long listening to the Living Voice system with all analog and all tube front end. It made music in an intimate and natural (there's that word) way that strongly reminds me of small scale chamber concerts I have frequently been to over the years...it was not musical...it was music and not hifi. Of course it wasn't perfect and once in a while it got caught out that you weren't hearing the real thing but it was believable enough I could really focus on the music and artistic component and not the whizz bang of the hifi. Was there a sameness? Every recording sounded totally different and yet compelling. So, if engagement to music is the sameness Mike means then guilty as charged!
i'll fully agree that to get solid state electronics and cones and cabinet speakers to really have the tonal richness and breath of life and liquidity is not trivial. it took me a decade of commitment in my room to get it to where i was happy. no audio show solid state system has that option.

in my mind my system does not sound like tubes or like solid state, and i get that same feedback from many visitors. or they think it sounds like tubes, especially the new dart 468's.

at the end of the day it might turn out we agree on what we want to hear, but maybe not about what are the possibilities of how you can get there.
 
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marty

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Do tube electronics impart a sameness to the sound of our music -- do they homogenize in some way the sounds of our stereo systems?
Ron's a clever guy. He asks a question he already knows the answer to but acts as a crafty provocateur by asking it anyway. How do I know Ron knows the answer? Simple, he has owned plenty of tube gear. He knows that pages have been written about the different SQ for the same tubes made by different manufacturers. But even more compelling, he knows that a tube changes its sound from the minute it is first played to its last dying breath. "Homogeneity" and "sameness" are hardly the first descriptors that come to mind when discussing music reproduced using tubes.
 

PeterA

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You have accurately restated that particular question.

Yes but I still don’t know what you mean by questioning if emotional connection to the music is a form of homogenization. I don’t understand your usage of the word homogenization. It seems that the discussion is not addressing this question at all.
 
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DaveC

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I guess it´s more that we´re above a minimum level of accceptance to relax and forget the system?...at least for me it works that way

Agreed, IMO once the psychoacoustic barriers that allow a suspension of disbelief is passed, when the system is capable of a "you are there" presentation without being fatiguing, one can much more easily relax and enjoy the music.
 

morricab

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Ron's a clever guy. He asks a question he already knows the answer to but acts as a crafty provocateur by asking it anyway. How do I know Ron knows the answer? Simple, he has owned plenty of tube gear. He knows that pages have been written about the different SQ for the same tubes made by different manufacturers. But even more compelling, he knows that a tube changes its sound from the minute it is first played to its last dying breath. "Homogeneity" and "sameness" are hardly the first descriptors that come to mind when discussing music reproduced using tubes.
Well that’s not what was meant by sameness and homegeneity ….
 
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morricab

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Agreed, IMO once the psychoacoustic barriers that allow a suspension of disbelief is passed, when the system is capable of a "you are there" presentation without being fatiguing, one can much more easily relax and enjoy the music.
IF the system can get there…
 

morricab

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not true; here is what i said in post #12 of this thread.



i know that does not fit into your narrative.

most of my favorite amps are tubed (Tenor OTL, Lamm ML3, Berning 845 among others). Tenor OTL's were my reference amp. but they exploded, so i needed an alternative. i'm a tube guy who found a solid state amp that gets close enough. i also recently made a significant investment in time and money to acquire a set of tube amps, and borrow another and do a 3 month head to head with my solid state amps to satisfy myself in my own system. and the answers are not perfect for any result. if that is not evidence of an open mind not sure what it might take. if you pay attention you would know i've never auditioned another solid state amp in my system because they don't interest me. i've had a number of tube amps in my system over the years. the darts are always up to the task of being more convincing to my ears.

i'll fully agree that to get solid state electronics and cones and cabinet speakers to really have the tonal richness and breath of life and liquidity is not trivial. it took me a decade of commitment in my room to get it to where i was happy. no audio show solid state system has that option.

in my mind my system does not sound like tubes or like solid state, and i get that same feedback from many visitors. or they think it sounds like tubes, especially the new dart 468's.

at the end of the day it might turn out we agree on what we want to hear, but maybe not about what are the possibilities of how you can get there.
Yes you added some further examples later but your first warning on the Lampi Horizon/DCS Apex thread was to watch out for tube sameness.
 

morricab

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Yeah, it's more a question of if the gear is neutral enough to not impart a recognizable and distracting sonic signature over everything.
I think they all put a recognizable signature it’s that one that distracts from suspension of disbelief that is the killer.
 

morricab

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not true; here is what i said in post #12 of this thread.



i know that does not fit into your narrative.

most of my favorite amps are tubed (Tenor OTL, Lamm ML3, Berning 845 among others). Tenor OTL's were my reference amp. but they exploded, so i needed an alternative. i'm a tube guy who found a solid state amp that gets close enough. i also recently made a significant investment in time and money to acquire a set of tube amps, and borrow another and do a 3 month head to head with my solid state amps to satisfy myself in my own system. and the answers are not perfect for any result. if that is not evidence of an open mind not sure what it might take. if you pay attention you would know i've never auditioned another solid state amp in my system because they don't interest me. i've had a number of tube amps in my system over the years. the darts are always up to the task of being more convincing to my ears in my particular system.

i'll fully agree that to get solid state electronics and cones and cabinet speakers to really have the tonal richness and breath of life and liquidity is not trivial. it took me a decade of commitment in my room to get it to where i was happy. no audio show solid state system has that option.

in my mind my system does not sound like tubes or like solid state, and i get that same feedback from many visitors. or they think it sounds like tubes, especially the new dart 468's.

at the end of the day it might turn out we agree on what we want to hear, but maybe not about what are the possibilities of how you can get there.
We can agree that Tenor OTLs sound superb!
 

morricab

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It's because we have given up on Brad, we all know that SET and preferably the brand he represents is ALWAYS the only way to go ! o_O You on the other hand Bob still have some credibility as being unbiased !;)
Based on feedback I would not say maybe credibility is as shot as you think…
 

PeterA

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Based on feedback I would not say maybe credibility is as shot as you think…

One of the things I find fascinating about the hobby is listening to a system with another one or two people and then discussing afterwards what we hear. I agree as often as I disagree with the fellow listeners. And at times, I vehemently disagree. It makes me wonder.
 

Atmasphere

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I am still hoping to discover if emotional connectedness to the music is itself a form of homogenization.
It isn't.

The brain processes music in the limbic system. But if it encounters something amiss while doing so it seamlessly transfers processing to the cerebral cortex. Distortions, FR errors, slowness and the like all have tipping points from one to the other.

When the music is processed in the limbic centers we experience greater emotional connection and content.

It does not matter tube or solid state in this regard.

IME what is important is the distortion signature (the so-called 'sonic signature') of the system. For example, if the higher ordered harmonics are audible (usually due to being unmasked by lower orders) then the system can be harsh and bright so there is a loss of emotional connection.
 
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Lagonda

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Based on feedback I would not say maybe credibility is as shot as you think…
I am not saying you have no credibility Brad, you are just very biased in your opinions. If i ever find myself itching for some good SET sound when visiting Zürich, you are definitely my go to man ! :)
 

thedudeabides

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It's because we have given up on Brad, we all know that SET and preferably the brand he represents is ALWAYS the only way to go ! o_O You on the other hand Bob still have some credibility as being unbiased !;)
Well stated. A "my way or the highway" perspective. How silly and indefensible. How one can apparently deny the importance of subjectivity, when determining the musicality of a system in this hobby, is beyond me.
 
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