Do I really need to concern myself with Balanced connections?

[NorthStar]

And...

Also not all pre/power amps implement a true balanced architecture, so the XLR in those situations can measure poorly and comes down to engineering implementation and design IMO.
On top of this there are those that further implement shield-chassis-signal ground incorrectly (more rare I think these days).

Cheers
Orb

That was mainly what I was saying earlier. I won't bother giving links on many of those products with lab measurements as I'm sure you guys are already awared of.

We can go much further with this subject, but I believe John our OP got an enough clear picture.

* Microstrip, I know what you're referring to: fully balanced vs. not really dual-differential balanced.
The former is implemented in products with a steep price sticker attached to them, while the later is part of quite inexpensive products.

And that's where the lab measurements can quite differ between the XLR and RCA connections, in these two different type of products.

And you are also quite right on the preamplifier lab measurements as well.

And also from the source.

Because these three products (power amp, preamp, and source) can have both XLR Balanced and RCA Unbalanced connectors, it is the sum of all parts. ...Input to output...
But the connector does not make the final balance, the internals do!

*** But if you have the choice (connectors), then the XLR provides a more secure fit.
...Physical solidity? ..As compared to quality WBT Lock-On RCA plugs?

"You'd be wasting your money if you didn't use the balanced connections. You should give yourself high-quality interconnect cables fitted with XLR plugs." - Michael Fremer, on the Marantz AV8003 preamp/MM8003 amp combo.

And he said: " The AV8003's balanced interconnectivity should result in superior immunity to induced noise (especially over long cable runs) when you use it with a multichannel amplifier that employs balanced inputs, like Marantz MM8003."

-> Mind you though; these two components are NOT 'truly/fully' dual-differential balanced,
from input to output.

Just want to put the dots on the "i"s.

I stand by what I said before.

 

[fas42]

Since we are talking about quality of connectors, Bob, I just might throw in again that 95% of all RCA sockets are junk, or borderline dodgy, very, very few are made correctly: that's a mighty good way to kill your sound quality stone dead straight away ...

Frank

 

[Kal Rubinson]

That was mainly what I was saying earlier. I won't bother giving links on many of those products with lab measurements as I'm sure you guys are already awared of.

We can go much further with this subject, but I believe John our OP got an enough clear picture.

* Microstrip, I know what you're referring to: fully balanced vs. not really dual-differential balanced.
The former is implemented in products with a steep price sticker attached to them, while the later is part of quite inexpensive products.

And that's where the lab measurements can quite differ between the XLR and RCA connections, in these two different type of products.

And you are also quite right on the preamplifier lab measurements as well.

And also from the source.

Because these three products (power amp, preamp, and source) can have both XLR Balanced and RCA Unbalanced connectors, it is the sum of all parts. ...Input to output...
But the connector does not make the final balance, the internals do!

*** But if you have the choice (connectors), then the XLR provides a more secure fit.
...Physical solidity? ..As compared to quality WBT Lock-On RCA plugs?

"You'd be wasting your money if you didn't use the balanced connections. You should give yourself high-quality interconnect cables fitted with XLR plugs." - Michael Fremer, on the Marantz AV8003 preamp/MM8003 amp combo.

And he said: " The AV8003's balanced interconnectivity should result in superior immunity to induced noise (especially over long cable runs) when you use it with a multichannel amplifier that employs balanced inputs, like Marantz MM8003."

-> Mind you though; these two components are NOT 'truly/fully' dual-differential balanced,
from input to output.

Just want to put the dots on the "i"s.

I stand by what I said before.

I quoted you in entirety because you make some reasonable points but I do not agree with your implication that components that are "NOT 'truly/fully' dual-differential balanced" are always inferior. There are two parts to this. The first has to do with the internal architecture of the device (let's say it's an amp) and there are both single-ended and balanced devices at all levels of quality. The second has to do with the use of balanced connections, mediated by transformers or circuitry, and the noise rejection is equally good either way.

BTW, Fremer uses the word "should" twice which implies that he did not measure/audition this and, I agree, it "should." In this case, it doesn't.

 

[NorthStar]

Hi Kal,

Just to mention that I never said "...are always inferior", from your above post. ...I guess you simply assumed.
You did say that I was implying, which is truly your own assumption my dear Kal.

And you're right regarding the Marantz products above; the lab tests revealed that the RCA Unbalanced connections resulted in better figures than the XLR Balanced ones. ...For THD+N, Crosstalk, and S/N ratio ("A" weighting). ..And by quite a large margin too.

________________

Frank, there are bad connectors on both side of these connections; RCA as well XLR.
And there are some good quality connectors, also on both side; RCA and XLR.

Short runs, sound quality, nah, no difference; unless in fully dual-differential balanced products.

________________

I luv it, luv those audio discussions. ...And luv you both too, with the largest respect.

Bob

 

[fas42]

Frank, there are bad connectors on both side of these connections; RCA as well XLR.
And there are some good quality connectors, also on both side; RCA and XLR.

Short runs, sound quality, nah, no difference; unless in fully dual-differential balanced products.

________________

I luv it, luv those audio discussions. ...And luv you both too, with the largest respect.

Bob

What I'm talking about in female RCAs is that very, very few have the outer conductor, the ground, made as a single piece of metal: most use a separate tag internally and the worst use a push fit of the contact point metal to another lump of metal which is used to tighten the part in place on the chassis. So in the latter there are 3, count them, 3 rough and ready metal to metal contacts making up the ground path of the ground connection. Of course, the best constructors then use the finest silver solder from then on to ensure that the signal isn't further mangled ...

(... something about doors and horses bolting ...)

Watch that affection business, Bob, my cat might get jealous ...

Frank

 

[Orb]

I quoted you in entirety because you make some reasonable points but I do not agree with your implication that components that are "NOT 'truly/fully' dual-differential balanced" are always inferior. There are two parts to this. The first has to do with the internal architecture of the device (let's say it's an amp) and there are both single-ended and balanced devices at all levels of quality. The second has to do with the use of balanced connections, mediated by transformers or circuitry, and the noise rejection is equally good either way.

BTW, Fremer uses the word "should" twice which implies that he did not measure/audition this and, I agree, it "should." In this case, it doesn't.

Agreed it definitely comes down to the internal architecture and the design-implementation, and also components within the circuitry included the RCA connectors.
There are some products that are better as single-ended, while some others are the other way round and better with balanced, and a few that seem equal for both - this is considering anecdotal sound quality in reviews and also importantly measurements.
I can think of examples where JA has mentioned that XLR has measured better, but also at times when single ended has as well.

Interestingly Hegel have a design that looks to match impedance on the singe-ended connection due to challenges it faces from cables-connectors (ok in this example it is focused on the digital S/PDIF RCA connector but is an example of one such challenge).

Cheers
Orb

 

[NorthStar]

Female RCA Input jacks on the rear of power amplifiers, the best are the ones with an outer ring that you can tighten. Hexagonal ring.

Remember our old car stereo tape decks with the two knobs on each side; remove the knobs and they too had that outer metal ring to tighten solidly your stereo deck to the car's front face dashboard.

Car's turntable?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi Kal,

Just to mention that I never said "...are always inferior", from your above post. ...I guess you simply assumed.

I know you never said it explicitely but, based on what you did say, I did not agree with your implication. ;-)

 

[microstrip]

Just a quick note to remember that some products implement the balanced inputs/outputs using transformers. This approach will probably result in a poorer distortion specifications in lab tests, but the intrinsic benefits of ground isolation and common mode rejection ratio can result in a better sound. This does not imply that a balanced connection sounds better than a single ended.

 

[NorthStar]

I know you never said it explicitely but, based on what you did say, I did not agree with your implication. ;-)

But your assumption on my ditto 'implication' was and still is wrong!
Trust me, those are my words, and from my state-of-mind.

Lol, not agreeing on my 'implication' based from your false interpretation!
You truly are a funny guy sometimes Kal. ..That's why I like you.

* Kal, for me you are an Audio Guru, and I read all your stuff for the last fifty years or so!
Plus, you have a great sense of humor, and you are not a stubborn person.
And you are also smart, meticulous, and very experienced in your domain.

Perhaps I know you more than yourself?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

But your assumption on my ditto 'implication' was and still is wrong!
Trust me, those are my words, and from my state-of-mind.

Lol, not agreeing on my 'implication' based from your false interpretation!

Well, I could have said my "inference" instead of your "implication" but it wouldn't have elicited as much of an exchange.
Thanks for the insight.

 

[NorthStar]

We're cool Kal, we're real cool man! Lol

 

[Vincent Kars]

Balanced is typical industrial strength
Higher level (V) and better protection against EMI.
But most sources and receivers are single ended.
At the source you need a balun to transform to balanced and at the receiver a differential amp or a transformer.
So you gain by having a more robust signal path and you lose by adding components to this path.

 

[kernelbob]

My experience going to balanced connectors

If your equipment is designed for it, balanced connections should give you better s/n and better low level detail. This was my experience when I got my Spectron Musician III Mk2 amps and compared the difference. With those amps, driven by an ARC REF-3, the difference was substantial. One of the benefits of balanced connections is common mode rejection. This is where distortion or noise that is common to both phases is cancelled out. Transformer noise, for example, is much lower (non existent with my ear next to the speaker drivers). White noise is also lower. If you just take single ended output and run it through an adapter, you won't get the same benefits.

 

[garylkoh]

If you just take single ended output and run it through an adapter, you won't get the same benefits.

This is because most adapters simply short pin 3 to ground, and that results in the balanced product being turned single-ended. However, balanced preamp (or source) and single-ended power amp, IMO, is not as bad as single-ended preamp and balanced power amp. In SOME cases, you can take "hot" to pin 2 and ground to pin 3 on the balanced power amp and it sounds better than taking hot to pin 2 and grounding pin 1 and 3 together. That depends on the design of the preamp. In other cases, you get a huge buzz/hum/radio station.

You can also experiment with transformer-coupled balance adapters (very common in pro-audio studios) that may get you more than halfway there.

 

[NorthStar]

Like anything else in life; if you want reliability, make it simple. Use less parts.

If a preamp is fully balanced from input to output, it uses more parts, it adds more complexity, unreliability, more stuff in the audio signal path.
And every add-on has a sound of his own.

Going Balanced is a recipe looking for trouble.
There ain't no trouble in my home audio, but precaution has to be taken in a recording studio, because trouble there does exist.

 

[DonH50]

Why would a balanced design be more complex than unbalanced? I am also not sure it is more unreliable... The majority of recording studios in which I have played and/or worked used balanced as much as possible.

I am sure I am going to regret sticking my toe into these waters...

 

[NorthStar]

Don't sweat to talk about Balanced versus Single-ended.

Why would a balanced design be more complex than unbalanced? I am also not sure it is more unreliable... The majority of recording studios in which I have played and/or worked used balanced as much as possible.

I am sure I am going to regret sticking my toe into these waters...

Don't worry for one bit Don!

You just answered your own question: you played and worked in recording studios.
{I am a non-pro musician myself, and I played with electrical instruments, and with the full band; and you know as I know that there are a lot of cables laying in the ground (floor), and the rest is history ...}

* I also worked as an assistant Light & Sound technician for major artists in a major venue.

My home is simple, and I want to keep it that way. It ain't a recording studio no more.

Ask any conscientious preamp designer, and the less parts used in a preamp the better it is for a lot of things, including sound quality with less extraneous sound introduced in the signal path.
Besides, well designed single-ended products are less expensive (in general), because they use less parts indeed.
And there is simply no such thing as parts that have no sound.

Balanced is for noise rejection (reduction) in a specific environment, like a recording studio where you use long runs of interconnects for the microphones and all the other gear. ...Or for some medical equipment.

Our homes aren't recording studios or hospitals.

-> Some Home Theater setups require long interconect runs, then a well designed pre/pro and amps that are fully balanced (Denon AVP-A1HDCI & POA-A1HDCI for example), are good in these situations.
- You also have the cases where each loudspeaker has its own power amplifier, and that makes automatically for longer interconnect runs.

Don, I ain't saying one is best over the other one; I'm simply balancing things in their proper context.
...Just sharing my opinion, my ideas, for the best discussion possible.

Bob

 

[Bruce B]

Our homes aren't recording studios or hospitals.

Mine is!!


What struck me as odd though is that DartZeel measures better in single-ended than balanced.

 

[microstrip]

Mine is!!


What struck me as odd though is that DartZeel measures better in single-ended than balanced.

DartZeel amplifiers are a special case - they are non balanced and use Neutrik input transformers to create a balanced input. Also their single ended input is optimized to the non standard in audio 50 ohm impedance.