Do I really need to concern myself with Balanced connections?

[Johnny Vinyl]

As I start to investigate my options for some upgrades next year, I wanted to ask if I should be concerned about a component not having balanced connections. I understand that many of you use them, although I've always heard that balanced connections don't make much of a difference in short runs. Weren't they basically an industry standard due to having to run cables of 25, 50 or 100 feet?

There are a few ARC units I've been looking at that do not offer these....should I bypass them?

Any thoughts are most appreciated. Thank you!

 

[mep]

There are of course two arguments on this issue. One argument is that you don't really need balanced connections unless you are in studio recording environment. The same argument is continued with the fact that balanced circuitry *complicates* things because you now have twice as much circuitry in the signal path. The latter argument is what OEMs use that don't offer balanced circuits. The other part of this story is that every component that sports balanced connectors isn't necessarily balanced. You need to peek under the hood if you want to know whether a given piece of gear is actually truly balanced or it just has balanced inputs and outputs.

Truly balanced gear usually offers an increase in gain over unbalanced gear and with that usually comes a better noise specification. All things being equal, higher gain and lower noise are usually good things to have. If I were shopping for a preamp, I would want one that at least has balanced connections in addition to unbalanced even if the balanced connections aren't truly balanced. If you happen to pick up an amp at some point in the future and it only has balanced inputs, it's nice to be able to drive it using balanced cables without using adapters which can lead to hum issues.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

If I were shopping for a preamp, I would want one that at least has balanced connections in addition to unbalanced even if the balanced connections aren't truly balanced.

Hi mep,

Thanks for that..however, I'm confused at the same time with the part I quoted. What would I gain if the balanced connections aren't truly balanced? Isn't that just throwing good money after bad?

 

[microstrip]

My approach is pragmatic - some balanced units really sound better in balanced mode, you should use them in balanced.

There is no real absolute advantage in using balanced units in normal domestic environment, but if you like the sound of units of a designer who prefers balanced you should go balanced.

Just for mind sanity, if buying from start I would try to avoid mixing balanced and non balanced units to avoid adapters and cable problems.

When I owned cj and the older ARC units I loved single ended. When I owned Jeff Rowland and Mark Levinson I loved balanced. My current system is modern ARC - balanced should be the best!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If I were shopping for a preamp, I would want one that at least has balanced connections in addition to unbalanced even if the balanced connections aren't truly balanced.

Hi mep,
Thanks for that..however, I'm confused at the same time with the part I quoted. What would I gain if the balanced connections aren't truly balanced? Isn't that just throwing good money after bad?

There's really no such thing as "truly" balanced. The connections are either balanced or not. I believe what mep is implying is that balanced connections on a device that is not balanced and differential internally are useful. I agree.

 

[mep]

Kal-You are exactly right in interpreting my thoughts. My point was John that if you buy an amp at sometime in the future and it only has balanced connections, having a preamp with balanced outputs will allow you to run XLR cables with no XLR to RCA adapters which can cause hum issues.

 

[NorthStar]

Go Unbalanced RCA connections John. ...Cheaper (less expensive) interconnects anyway.
And you don't have animals or kids playing in the back of your gear.
And your Stereo setup uses short interconnects.

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. Bonjour Kalman.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

There's really no such thing as "truly" balanced. The connections are either balanced or not. I believe what mep is implying is that balanced connections on a device that is not balanced and differential internally are useful. I agree.

Kal-You are exactly right in interpreting my thoughts. My point was John that if you buy an amp at sometime in the future and it only has balanced connections, having a preamp with balanced outputs will allow you to run XLR cables with no XLR to RCA adapters which can cause hum issues.

Thank you.....I understand it now.

 

[microstrip]

Go Unbalanced RCA connections John. ...Cheaper (less expensive) interconnects anyway. (...)

Sorry to disagree Bob, but not always. Most manufacturers charge the same amount for both types of cables.

And a few people (not me, I have no opinion on that one ) claim that using balanced cables you are less sensitive to cable quality, and balanced connections allow you to use less expensive cables.

 

[mep]

Sorry to disagree Loyd, but not always. Most manufacturers charge the same amount for both types of cables.

And a few people (not me, I have no opinion on that one ) claim that using balanced cables you are less sensitive to cable quality, and balanced connections allow you to use less expensive cables.

And many would argue that you can use cheap cables regardless if they are balanced or unbalanced...

 

[NorthStar]

Anyway, many times the Unbalanced RCA connections result in better THD+N, better Crosstalk, better Signal-to-noise ratio with "A" weighting figures from the Lab Measurements, compared to the Balanced XLR connections.
-> Just read the professional reviews, or ask Kal (Kalman Rubinson).

* John, just use quality interconnect RCA cables, like from KimberKable, and you're good to go my friend.

P.S. Micro, name's Bob, not Lyod.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

-> Just read the professional reviews, or ask Kal (Kalman Rubinson). )

Ask me what? Do balanced connections sound better? I would not say yes or no as it is not absolute. I prefer the connectors on XLRs.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I think what I'm going to do is not overly concern myself with it. If I see a component I like and may want to get, I won't discount it because it doesn't have Balanced connections. To me it doesn't seem like it's a night and day difference anyway.

 

[NorthStar]

Kal,

XLR = more solid connection. Check!

* In many Lab Tests, the RCA Unbalanced connections produce better results in those specific aspects I just mentioned above; as compared to the XLR Balanced ones, right or wrong?
{I never mentioned or asked which or which sounds better, only commented on the bench tests.}

** The Overall Gain, that, I did not mention. Just sayin'.

Bob

 

[NorthStar]

I think what I'm going to do is not overly concern myself with it. If I see a component I like and may want to get, I won't discount it because it doesn't have Balanced connections. To me it doesn't seem like it's a night and day difference anyway.

Now, that is smartly put!

 

[Orb]

I think what I'm going to do is not overly concern myself with it. If I see a component I like and may want to get, I won't discount it because it doesn't have Balanced connections. To me it doesn't seem like it's a night and day difference anyway.

Yeah if you like how a product sounds I would never exclude it based on connection options.
I would say though that subtle differences may seem larger when examined from a long term listening preference perspective.
By this I mean a listener trying to define differences may notice they are indeed subtle, but when it comes to long term listening one may provide satisfaction-enjoyment and the other dissatisfaction.
Unfortunately there is no universal way to quantify definable factors (beyond generics) to that of a listener's long term satisfaction or dissonance, because even when it comes to errors-issues we have different thresholds and tolerances (as noted by Toole).

Cheers
Orb

 

[jadis]

Since I understand that the issue is more gain using balanced electronics, and specifically a thought had occurred to me in case I change from my present unbalanced preamp (Jadis JPL) into an ARC Ref 3 line stage; the main output gain of my Jadis is 35db and the Ref 3 is only 11.6db on its balanced output and the idea was to mate it with my ARC VS115 which can accept both balanced and unbalanced (jumper needed) preamps. Now, wouldn't that negate the gain advantage of shifting to an ARC balanced pre-amp when the ratio of gain is almost 3x more for the Jadis preamp on paper alone?

 

[jadis]

And a few people (not me, I have no opinion on that one ) claim that using balanced cables you are less sensitive to cable quality, and balanced connections allow you to use less expensive cables.

A few years ago, a good friend jumped into the balanced camp and was told exactly that by a local dealer. He bought a pair of long Belden cables and thought it sounded terrible. Later on, he ordered a pair of Cardas and the difference was night and day, Cardas sounded so much better. They cost many many times more though.

 

[microstrip]

Kal,

XLR = more solid connection. Check!

* In many Lab Tests, the RCA Unbalanced connections produce better results in the the specific aspects I just mentioned above; as compared to the XLR Balanced ones, right or wrong?
{I never mentioned or asked which or which sounds better, only from the bench tests.}

** The Overall Gain, that, I did not mention.

Bob

AFAIK wrong, at less for a few cases I know about. The big advantage of balanced mode is canceling common mode errors, that are not negligible, and results in better measured specifications.

BTW, as an amplifier does not play music without a source, please remember you should also look at the specifications of the source output when comparing situations.

 

[Orb]

Also not all pre/power amps implement a true balanced architecture, so the XLR in those situations can measure poorly and comes down to engineering implementation and design IMO.
On top of this there are those that further implement shield-chassis-signal ground incorrectly (more rare I think these days).

Cheers
Orb