Digital that sounds like analog

[A.wayne]

Wazzup guys?

Here's another disc recommendation - for the soundtrack to a movie, Don Giovanni. In the past I've never been a fan of opera, never had any on LP before the age of CD, but bought a few boxed sets when I could get staff discount on Sony CDs. I never really played the discs, with the exception of La Traviata which I have on Decca. With my new filter-equipped DAC, I thought I'd give this one a whirl after all those intervening years. I'm beginning to work out now why I never much enjoyed my opera CDs - on this DAC this one is amazing in terms of the diction of the singers. Its really clear to me now why opera is sung in Italian - its the emotional content in all those fricative consonants, but all the digital systems I've owned before now turned those fine details to mush, sibilance. Only now have I fallen in love with opera

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Giovanni-Raimondi-Kanawa-Maazel/dp/B000GCFAHK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZgxTWp9YI

 

[LL21]

Keep them coming Have all your questions dried up now Lloyd?

Hi Opus...you have answered so many questions! i have had a hard time reading them all and trying understand them...i am getting there. At this moment, i am literally struggling to get something 'basic and concrete' out of these discussions to help me with my current digital dilemma. What elements of implementation or modification would one consider to improve upon my favorite redbook digital...the Zanden? Based on everything you have tried to teach many of us so far, I am very curious...you have looked at their analogue filter i believe. Would it be more simple things like better RFI/MF shielding, better isolation from vibration, higher powered PSU for dynamics, higher quality wiring...or is it something fundamental to the circuitry design or filter design.

I have often suspected given where Audio Note went with their latest DAC 5th Element...they put an entire M9 preamp in the bloody DAC without the volume control...is that just to justify crazy expense...or is there something that Zanden could do ...or a modifier might do (yikes!!!) to improve upon the DAC?

 

[opus111]

Hi Opus...you have answered so many questions! i have had a hard time reading them all and trying understand them...i am getting there.

From my side, your questions on here are doing just great to keep the thread vibrant

At this moment, i am literally struggling to get something 'basic and concrete' out of these discussions to help me with my current digital dilemma. What elements of implementation or modification would one consider to improve upon my favorite redbook digital...the Zanden?

First step is to consider system-level issues. You mentioned that the Zanden doesn't sound top-notch unless its paired up with its own dedicated transport? That tells me its sensitive to common-mode noise from the transport - most DACs are sensitive like that, but to me that's a design shortcoming.

Based on everything you have tried to teach many of us so far, I am very curious...you have looked at their analogue filter i believe.

Yes I looked with interest - that was before I built the elliptic filter and listened to it. The original premise of the special design of Zanden's filter was to get around the phase issues that filters like mine have. But so far, I don't hear any such problems with my filter, when I have problems they are still very definitely in the DAC part (layout mostly), not in the filter. So I do question that premise and rather suspect that that filter gets its great sound incidental to the expressed purpose

Would it be more simple things like better RFI/MF shielding, better isolation from vibration, higher powered PSU for dynamics, higher quality wiring...or is it something fundamental to the circuitry design or filter design.

Well what I do is try to avoid fixing things that aren't broke. So I need to understand what the problem is that needs fixing - what aspects of the sound niggle you or fail to satisfy in what you have? Have you heard aspects of sound better in other systems that you'd like to have in your setup?

I have often suspected given where Audio Note went with their latest DAC 5th Element...they put an entire M9 preamp in the bloody DAC without the volume control...is that just to justify crazy expense...or is there something that Zanden could do ...or a modifier might do (yikes!!!) to improve upon the DAC?

The top end is definitely going totally bonkers these days so perhaps they realized there are people willing to pay megabucks for 'statement' designs and came up with one to suit. Seems to me they're not alone - the uber-high end is in a bubble and its not sustainable longer term. I remember Thorsten of AMR saying on DIYA that the dealers of his brand keep asking for higher priced products to be designed because they know they can shift them. So far AMR hasn't gone stratospheric but who knows how long they can resist?

 

[LL21]

From my side, your questions on here are doing just great to keep the thread vibrant

...I need to understand what the problem is that needs fixing - what aspects of the sound niggle you or fail to satisfy in what you have? Have you heard aspects of sound better in other systems that you'd like to have in your setup?

Hi Opus...to date i have listened to Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A, Stahl-Tek Vekian, Esoteric X01SE, Audio Aero La Source, Krell 505, ARC CD3,5,7,8, Emm CDSA, Meridian 808i.2, DCS Scarlatti. So far, the Scarlatti and Stahl-Tek are the only 2 which clearly surpassed the Zanden in terms of detail/delivery. The Metronome Kalista Ref too.

However, in terms of pure music, listenability, enjoyment, tonality, none have surpassed the Zanden for me. and in terms of the rest of the traditional audiophile metrics, pace, rhythm, extension, natural tonality, etc, none have surpassed Zanden t my ears. In truth, i enjoy listening to my Zanden more than these others. all of them.

So i suppose the answer to your question about where i observe Zanden being up for an upgrade is in the area of pure detail, decay, noise floor where Stahl-Tek and Scarlatti were truly a generation ahead. What is your advice relating to Zanden and possible upgrades/areas for consideration?

 

[opus111]

OK I think I'm getting it but I'd like a bit more clarification on what the dCS and Stahl-Tek are doing for you that Zanden isn't. Firstly we are similar in tastes - I'm always going for tonality, absence of digital greyness. And it makes total sense to me that Zanden delivers that, given its components. So can you instantiate the 'pure detail, decay' on specific pieces of music? What changes in terms of the music? I ask this because abstractions like 'detail' often mean different things to different people.

I'll give an example of the kind of thing I mean by instantiation. I mean saying things like 'on recording X, track 3 I hear the final chord of the piano decaying into the natural reverberant acoustic space much better on DAC R than DAC S'. When I can get inside what the Zanden is lacking then I'll have suggestions

 

[LL21]

OK I think I'm getting it but I'd like a bit more clarification on what the dCS and Stahl-Tek are doing for you that Zanden isn't. Firstly we are similar in tastes - I'm always going for tonality, absence of digital greyness. And it makes total sense to me that Zanden delivers that, given its components. So can you instantiate the 'pure detail, decay' on specific pieces of music? What changes in terms of the music? I ask this because abstractions like 'detail' often mean different things to different people.

I'll give an example of the kind of thing I mean by instantiation. I mean saying things like 'on recording X, track 3 I hear the final chord of the piano decaying into the natural reverberant acoustic space much better on DAC R than DAC S'. When I can get inside what the Zanden is lacking then I'll have suggestions

Wonderful! Thank you. Here is a specific example of Stahl-Tek's superior element to Zanden: On REference REcordings Vivaldi (a mix of various pieces), the first track has a medium sized ensemble playing including harpsichord. On Stahl-Tek, the instrument separation and ability to follow individual lines of music played by each instrument is effortless and natural to do. With Zanden, the music is all there as one piece, and the string tonality is superior imho...but it is definitely harder to follow individual instrument musical lines, and the placement of the instruments is more diffuse. You understand with Stahl-Tek that the violins are first row, the harpsichord about 10 feet back and off to the right and you understand the contrapuntal nature of what the harpsichord is doing compared with the horns or strings...you have 'listen for the contrapuntal nature' with Zanden a little because the instruments are not quite so easily and individually defined.

Does that help? Look forward to your guidance!!!

 

[opus111]

Yes yes YES!!!! That is magic!

Now I have some idea what might be the matter with your Zanden. When I was playing with my DAC earlier this week, I moved one wire and lost the soundstage depth almost totally. I had to scratch my head for a moment to work out how such a small change could make such a huge difference to the sound, so I retraced my steps one by one, listening as I went. Sure enough, the grounding position of one wire made that substantial difference. So my preliminary diagnosis is that the designers of the Zanden probably got their layout slightly wrong and this can be fixed with a judicious mod to the DAC PCB. Is it currently under any kind of warranty?

 

[LL21]

Yes yes YES!!!! That is magic!

Now I have some idea what might be the matter with your Zanden. When I was playing with my DAC earlier this week, I moved one wire and lost the soundstage depth almost totally. I had to scratch my head for a moment to work out how such a small change could make such a huge difference to the sound, so I retraced my steps one by one, listening as I went. Sure enough, the grounding position of one wire made that substantial difference. So my preliminary diagnosis is that the designers of the Zanden probably got their layout slightly wrong and this can be fixed with a judicious mod to the DAC PCB. Is it currently under any kind of warranty?

okaaay...here we go. Whats a PCB? Sorry...printed circuit board? BTW, we also have a transformer hum that leaks thru when the volume is super super loud and there is no music playing...they said a choke filter needs to be replaced. any relation?

 

[opus111]

Yes, printed circuit board. You were having a visit from a techie to have a look at your choke input filter a while back - he couldn't fix it? I doubt that this is related but its possible. The problem with the choke is most probably a dried out cap at the output of the choke.

 

[LL21]

Yes, printed circuit board. You were having a visit from a techie to have a look at your choke input filter a while back - he couldn't fix it? I doubt that this is related but its possible. The problem with the choke is most probably a dried out cap at the output of the choke.

Yes he comes on the 18th...i will ask! Thank you!

 

[microstrip]

Wonderful! Thank you. Here is a specific example of Stahl-Tek's superior element to Zanden: On REference REcordings Vivaldi (a mix of various pieces), the first track has a medium sized ensemble playing including harpsichord. On Stahl-Tek, the instrument separation and ability to follow individual lines of music played by each instrument is effortless and natural to do. With Zanden, the music is all there as one piece, and the string tonality is superior imho...but it is definitely harder to follow individual instrument musical lines, and the placement of the instruments is more diffuse. You understand with Stahl-Tek that the violins are first row, the harpsichord about 10 feet back and off to the right and you understand the contrapuntal nature of what the harpsichord is doing compared with the horns or strings...you have 'listen for the contrapuntal nature' with Zanden a little because the instruments are not quite so easily and individually defined.

Does that help? Look forward to your guidance!!!

You should check if this effect of depth layering is systematically happening with other recordings or mainly with Reference Recordings. I have several great experiences with systems playing with holographic, almost 3D precise positioning and sound decay using Reference Recordings CDs such as the Chicago pro Musica, the Tafelmusik and the Helicon Ensemble, and sounding average on other recordings of other labels. IMHO, when critically evaluating a system you need more than half a dozen of preferred recordings.

 

[LL21]

You should check if this effect of depth layering is systematically happening with other recordings or mainly with Reference Recordings. I have several great experiences with systems playing with holographic, almost 3D precise positioning and sound decay using Reference Recordings CDs such as the Chicago pro Musica, the Tafelmusik and the Helicon Ensemble, and sounding average on other recordings of other labels. IMHO, when critically evaluating a system you need more than half a dozen of preferred recordings.

Hi Microstrip, yes, i agree with you. i played nearly 12 albums with this system...and it was quite consistent. I only use the Reference Recordings in my example because i played it over and over, because i wanted to make sure i took one album as a mental imprint as best i could for future reference.

 

[opus111]

A while I ago I built a 32 paralleled chip NOS DAC from radically modifying a DAC-AH. The DAC-AH is an 8 paralleled TDA1543 design with passive I/V and an opamp post-buffer. In place of each TDA1543 I installed a stack of 4 TDA1387 which is pin-compatible, although its a much smaller SMT package. I ran the DACs in differential mode, 16 in each phase and the I/V resistors were 3.3ohms.

I've now decided to start modifying this again to accept the new filter, for which I'm transforming the filter into a differential (balanced) one. Here's the new schematic.



I'll be removing the majority of the DAC chips as I only need 44ohms as I/V resistor. But I'll also further modify this to correct for the NOS droop by adding a two-stage tapped delay line as transversal filter. Its the simplest way I know of to get a flat FR out of NOS without upsetting the SQ.

For those who'd like to follow along at home, you can get the mainboard for this DAC for just $100 here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITE-Audio-...t=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item2a264b6e13

The boxed finished unit is here, for $138 : http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITE-Audio-...t=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item2a249593c5

 

[opus111]

An anti-recommendation....

This is the disc I'm currently listening to - I'm a very long term fan of Chopin, my father used to play a DG LP of Polllini playing Chopin's Etudes. For many years this was my go-to disc for a fix of piano brilliance. Anyway I mention this Pentatone disc as an example of what I really do not like about DSD sound - squashed dynamics - aka elevator music If you love this kind of sound, do not come anywhere near my DAC

http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B001F1YC2A/

Listening a bit more, it seems DSD's dynamics are mostly squashed towards the top end of the frequency spectrum - there are occasional bass notes on the piano which show signs of redbook's inherent dynamics, but they're a rarety on this recording.

 

[Gregadd]

Samples are beautiful.

 

[LL21]

A while I ago I built a 32 paralleled chip NOS DAC from radically modifying a DAC-AH. The DAC-AH is an 8 paralleled TDA1543 design with passive I/V and an opamp post-buffer. In place of each TDA1543 I installed a stack of 4 TDA1387 which is pin-compatible, although its a much smaller SMT package. I ran the DACs in differential mode, 16 in each phase and the I/V resistors were 3.3ohms.

I've now decided to start modifying this again to accept the new filter, for which I'm transforming the filter into a differential (balanced) one. Here's the new schematic.

View attachment 7041

I'll be removing the majority of the DAC chips as I only need 44ohms as I/V resistor. But I'll also further modify this to correct for the NOS droop by adding a two-stage tapped delay line as transversal filter. Its the simplest way I know of to get a flat FR out of NOS without upsetting the SQ.

For those who'd like to follow along at home, you can get the mainboard for this DAC for just $100 here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITE-Audio-...t=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item2a264b6e13

The boxed finished unit is here, for $138 : http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITE-Audio-...t=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item2a249593c5

Quite cool! I looked up the finished unit! wow.

 

[LL21]

This is the disc I'm currently listening to - I'm a very long term fan of Chopin, my father used to play a DG LP of Polllini playing Chopin's Etudes. For many years this was my go-to disc for a fix of piano brilliance. Anyway I mention this Pentatone disc as an example of what I really do not like about DSD sound - squashed dynamics - aka elevator music If you love this kind of sound, do not come anywhere near my DAC

http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B001F1YC2A/

Listening a bit more, it seems DSD's dynamics are mostly squashed towards the top end of the frequency spectrum - there are occasional bass notes on the piano which show signs of redbook's inherent dynamics, but they're a rarety on this recording.

By contrast, i highly recommend Chopin Nocturnes Ivan Moravec...beautiful.

 

[opus111]

Fallen out of love with RR

You should check if this effect of depth layering is systematically happening with other recordings or mainly with Reference Recordings. I have several great experiences with systems playing with holographic, almost 3D precise positioning and sound decay using Reference Recordings CDs such as the Chicago pro Musica, the Tafelmusik and the Helicon Ensemble, and sounding average on other recordings of other labels. IMHO, when critically evaluating a system you need more than half a dozen of preferred recordings.

I used to rate RR recordings as the clearest most transparent amongst all the discs that I have. In particular I've really enjoyed listening to the Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances. However as I've developed my DAC I have become gradually less and less enamoured of them. The subjective experience of them hasn't improved much as the DAC has become progressively more transparent, whereas other recordings have improved substantially. Listening now to 'The RR sound' sampler disc I do hear some HF noise modulation surrounding massed voices - this might be because its HDCD encoded and I have no decoder. In any case RR discs are no longer go-tos for me in terms of dynamics and transparency.

 

[LL21]

I used to rate RR recordings as the clearest most transparent amongst all the discs that I have. In particular I've really enjoyed listening to the Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances. However as I've developed my DAC I have become gradually less and less enamoured of them. The subjective experience of them hasn't improved much as the DAC has become progressively more transparent, whereas other recordings have improved substantially. Listening now to 'The RR sound' sampler disc I do hear some HF noise modulation surrounding massed voices - this might be because its HDCD encoded and I have no decoder. In any case RR discs are no longer go-tos for me in terms of dynamics and transparency.

Funny...i like mine, but have found so many more that i prefer.

 

[opus111]

Yes I'm not saying I dislike them now, but with the huge choice out there then there are indeed so many others I now prefer. Like Mercury Living Presence and Decca just to name but two. Many of the older analog recordings have really come alive for me since I began my DAC odyssey and departed the land of S-D