Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[microstrip]

With respect, I don’t believe you.

Although it is not my preferred listening position, we have several very influential members in WBF that have such listening geometry.

 

[JiminGa]

Maybe I got this idea from my reading of WASP, or maybe I got it from direct conversation with Bill P or Daryl. But I’ve been aware of this since my earliest encounter with WASP.

I think they think you will want to use the zones of neutrality closest to the front wall. But zones further back are great for setting up other vibration sensitive gear. I’ve got my TTs set up behind the listener using this strategy.

There is only one placing that is optimal. The typical zone of neutrality is a good approximation but getting to the millimeter is a real trick. Dave Ellington (Wilson Audio) who knows a thing or two about set up heard one of Todd’s XVX/Subsonic set ups which was previously set up by Peter. Peter had spent a lot of time getting it to his liking. It was so much better that after one song that he stood up, turned around walked to the back of the room and shook Todd’s hand saying “GREAT set up man!”. The last inch is a football field in sonic terms. There is SO much to this. No one can fully explain it on a forum like this. Elliot is right you first have to know where you are going and you need really good listening skills and you need a LOT of experience. Lots of people can get close and you would never know what you’re missing.

 

[wil]

Sounds like an issue peculiar to your room. This is not a criticism or instruction. Your ears … your system.

I don’t think sitting slightly near field is especially unusual. 10’ tweeter to tweeter, ears about 9.5’ from tweeters.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Elliot is right you first have to know where you are going and you need really good listening skills and you need a LOT of experience. Lots of people can get close and you would never know what you’re missing.

Well, I know where I want to go and what I am missing. By far my best listening experience was the presentation of the WAMM/ Master Subsonic subwoofers European presentation in our local distributor . Most of the whole Wilson team, Peter McGrath included, worked hard and intensively for two full days with little sleep to set-up the system, in close cooperation with people in the factory. But when I had the privilege of sitting with Peter listening to my favorite recordings, it was a new world. Words could not describe it. My imagination was not needed to recreate the performances - they were there, in front of me. The sound of this day will always guide my probably never ending search. I can always pretend it was just the top gear to peace my mind, but no, there was also something else. It was also set up.

 

[microstrip]

I don’t think sitting slightly near field is especially unusual. 10’ tweeter to tweeter, ears about 9.5’ from tweeters.

This not near field - near field needs less than 6 feet distance. And it is almost equilateral!

 

[Elliot G.]

I don’t think sitting slightly near field is especially unusual. 10’ tweeter to tweeter, ears about 9.5’ from tweeters.

having nothing to do with the numbers since I don't use them I like sitting in closer usually than farther away, however this is also room and speaker dependant .

 

[Elliot G.]

There is only one placing that is optimal. The typical zone of neutrality is a good approximation but getting to the millimeter is a real trick. Dave Ellington (Wilson Audio) who knows a thing or two about set up heard one of Todd’s XVX/Subsonic set ups which was previously set up by Peter. Peter had spent a lot of time getting it to his liking. It was so much better that after one song that he stood up, turned around walked to the back of the room and shook Todd’s hand saying “GREAT set up man!”. The last inch is a football field in sonic terms. There is SO much to this. No one can fully explain it on a forum like this. Elliot is right you first have to know where you are going and you need really good listening skills and you need a LOT of experience. Lots of people can get close and you would never know what you’re missing.

As Dirty Harry said " a man's got to know his limitations" LOL

 

[JiminGa]

Well, I know where I want to go and what I am missing. By far my best listening experience was the presentation of the WAMM/ Master Subsonic subwoofers European presentation in our local distributor . Most of the whole Wilson team, Peter McGrath included, worked hard and intensively for two full days with little sleep to set-up the system, in close cooperation with people in the factory. But when I had the privilege of sitting with Peter listening to my favorite recordings, it was a new world. Words could not describe it. My imagination was not needed to recreate the performances - they were there, in front of me. The sound of this day will always guide my probably never ending search. I can always pretend it was just the top gear to peace my mind, but no, there was also something else. It was also set up.

Yes Peter is a great set up guy. I'm not knocking him. You'd be lucky to have him. I've just personally witnessed 2 examples of his setups being improved clearly and audibly one of which (as I described) was witnessed by Dave. The speakers were only off by 2 or 3 inches but that was very meaningful. Other things like matching the rake angle of the subsonic to match the rake angle on the XVXs Dave had not seen before. Little things like taping the spike threads to eliminate micro movements matter. It's a million little things that you learn over the decades. I've got no vested interest in this and I've shared my thoughts so I will sign off on this topic. Love and passion for music is my only guide. It has gotten me through many dark times and I owe my life to it. I know you have great passion as well and I respect you for it.

 

[microstrip]

Yes Peter is a great set up guy. I'm not knocking him. You'd be lucky to have him. I've just personally witnessed 2 examples of his setups being improved clearly and audibly one of which (as I described) was witnessed by Dave.

Just to point it was not just Peter set up. It was a team work with several other people from Wilson.

 

[wil]

This not near field - near field needs less than 6 feet distance. And it is almost equilateral!

Compared to the 82%, which would put me at about 13 feet back, I’d say it’s relatively slightly near field

 

[Lee]

Compared to the 82%, which would put me at about 13 feet back, I’d say it’s relatively slightly near field

FYI. I think there is some honest confusion with the term. Nearfield in pro audio means six feet or less from the monitors. In my experience, nearfield is used incorrectly a lot.

 

[Lee]

Yes Peter is a great set up guy. I'm not knocking him. You'd be lucky to have him. I've just personally witnessed 2 examples of his setups being improved clearly and audibly one of which (as I described) was witnessed by Dave. The speakers were only off by 2 or 3 inches but that was very meaningful. Other things like matching the rake angle of the subsonic to match the rake angle on the XVXs Dave had not seen before. Little things like taping the spike threads to eliminate micro movements matter. It's a million little things that you learn over the decades. I've got no vested interest in this and I've shared my thoughts so I will sign off on this topic. Love and passion for music is my only guide. It has gotten me through many dark times and I owe my life to it. I know you have great passion as well and I respect you for it.

Well said Jim. I adjusted my Loke subwoofers’ feet using digital calipers to match the baffle of the Alexias. It improved the bass. David Ellington at Wilson Audio suggested I try that.

 

[Holmz]

This may be a bit controversial.

What do people think about aiming speakers straight ahead in the room, not toed in toward the listener? I think it is hard to generalize, and it depends on dispersion patterns and the distance between the speakers versus the walls and many other factors. I found in my old system with freestanding speakers pulled out into the room that I got the most natural presentation with the speakers, aiming straight ahead. It was extremely difficult to find the right position on the floor without toe in, but the increased effort was worth it for the final result.

Most systems I see utilize some degree of toe in towards the listener. I wonder if this is a kind of shortcut and compromise because it takes less time to achieve a satisfying result.

Whether they are straight forward, or toed in or out, can also depend on what is beside the speakers.

 

[PeterA]

Whether they are straight forward, or toed in or out, can also depend on what is beside the speakers.

Yes, but for the sake of argument, I was thinking two speakers pulled out from the walls standing free in space. Almost every orientation instance I’ve seen at private homes, dealers and shows, speakers are toed in, often by a lot. Very few are aiming straight ahead, but I found after a lot of effort, I preferred that orientation in my old system. I’m just curious if others have even tried it.

With this orientation, I ended up moving the speakers closer towards each other and so the ratio of tweeter to tweeter versus ear to tweeter was less than Jim Smith’s findings of roughly 83%. One of the things Jim Smith told me which I found quite interesting and true is that moving the speakers closer towards each other does not have to result in a narrower sound stage. I found this to be the case, regardless of the degree of toe in. When the speakers were in the right spot in the room, I experienced a greater variety of spatial information between recordings.