David Karmeli's Natural Sound in Utah
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
If I recall their prices used to be much higher before they went direct. Neodio is one of the best sounding players imo.
"Each speaker had a single horn for mids and highs. They are all from the 20th Century and they all sound delicious ." and
"they are all two-way speakers, with 2 large woofers."
I hope you realise you stumbled across the secret of life.
Whether one adds a super tweeter or sub-bass drive(both a very slippery slope) is up to you but the heart needs to be what you said
"they are all two-way speakers, with 2 large woofers."
I hope you realise you stumbled across the secret of life.
Whether one adds a super tweeter or sub-bass drive(both a very slippery slope) is up to you but the heart needs to be what you said
Impressions
Here's Part 2 of my commentary on visiting David Karmeli (@ddk) with @PeterA in late March 2022:
I talked about the equipment we saw and used during our listening sessions. The gear is uber-cool, fantastico, three largish horn systems coupled with Lamm electronics and David's superb AS2000 rig, configured with David's expertise - a musical mecca indeed - raise your hand if you'd like to spend even a couple hours listening to your favorite music on these systems.
I see a lot of hands.
Now let me say a bit about what we heard and general impressions. David has a large collection of jazz, classical and rock albums - and its organized! Peter brought with him records from his collection. We spent most of our time listening, with some walking around and moving equipment with chat in between. It was tempting to go 'oh let's hear this', and 'what about that one', and we did some of that but our audiophile instincts kicked in, leading us to use a few select records on each configuration we heard.
From David's collection, Ella and guitarist Joe Pass (Pablo 2310 702) had us from note 1 with sheer beauty and charming simplicity. It's not breathy Ipanema - this is classic girl with guitar jazz music. Ella is magical. The first thing I did when I got home was buy a copy of this album. It's available and relatively inexpensive.
I was really happy that Peter brought this Grumiaux, Beethoven Violin Concerto on Philips 6500 775.
We played other music, some Bach with Trumpet and Organ (Philps 6500 925), Cream's 'Fresh Cream' (Reaction 594 001), Sibelius' 2nd Symphony (Decca SXL 6125) and a Cello Concerto with Rotropovich (whose catalog nbr I did not get right) - and lots of stuff in between, whose titles I did not write down. The two above we played the most.
The Klangfilm Bionor system gave us the best stereo reproduction I have heard. period. I have played records most of my life, but It was here, frst, I underwent a sudden disturbance of my mind coupled with an astonished reverence (shock & awe) for the Neumann cartridge. If you are a vinylist, somehow try to hear this transducer sometime in yr life. I thought I knew Grumiaux on Philips pretty well, but never have I heard his violin sound so sweet and natural. For my experience it is this system (Bionors on ML3s w/ JBL subs on ML2s, LL1.1, LP1, AS200) that is the archetype, the Platonic form representing what is possible in stereo reproduction. These really large wood panels just sat there taking up my view and the room filled with music. It may fade my mind over time but I will never forget it. Truly special.
After that paean to the Bionors you'd think anything else might be a bit of a let down - not true. I could break it down using audiophile words, but I'll co-opt this thread's title to say the TAD and JBL speakers offered the same natural sound as the Klangfilm theater speakers. The differential was a matter of nuance and degree but somewhat obvious. These systems are so clarifying, so straightforwardly at hand to one's ear that variations in their characteristics while small - or what I'll call small - their characteristics are not secrets requirng scrutinized A/B comparisons. We did not go back and forth between them.
Have you heard a live performance, say in a jazz club or concert hall where the tonality was a touch lean, or the stand up bass lacked articulation? Heh. This is partly why such is so difficult to describe using the language of reproduction. As David and Peter describe, one hallmark of natural sound is its realization with an equity of attributes. That means audiophile attributes' such as "micro dynamics" or "frequency incongruities" while possibly informative, are a) of less interest because b) their specificity is is consumed by the whole - offering an experience that is not a sum of parts, an experience that as it moves along is continually integrative, carrying us with it as it flows, without allowing the development of tendency to pick at it. As a reviewer I bear my own self-burden of analysing components and systems that I hear, I literally have to tell myself not to do that. With these three systems that never happened. Music was simply there, in the manner that music in a club or hall is simply there. And it is not by accident or chance. Live acoustic music does not sound natural - it is natural. David's systems sound natural.
Just as Ella was simply there with her guitarist next to her on a stool, standing between and slightly behind the JBLs, blowing our minds with her naturally easy voice. On the JBLs we first listened to her record with the ML2s (18 watts) then David offered to hook up a pair of Lamm M1.1 solid-state 110 watts into 8 ohms (the predecessor to the current M1.2, which I own.). David keeps electronics turned on all the time and the ML2s were nicely warmed-up in their use on the JBL subs, but the M1.1s were not regularly in use and not on. Peter and I carried them out of a corner and put them in place. I wanted to hear the JBLs with an amp I knew really well. The ML2s had shown off their lovely Lamm SET sound. At first, by comparison, the M1.1s sounded like they were on oxygen, struggling - I was dissapointed. But after 45 minutes they were warmed up to a point that they sounded almost as good the SET amps, maybe a touch less sweet maybe not quite as harmonically full. Ella didn't seem to mind, there was no fall-off in our enjoyment.
David described the TAD 2401s as sounding very very similar to the M9500s. And he was right. But ... they were not sonically identical. (and jeez they looked so good.) Imo the TADs were a wee tiny bit drier overall with maybe maybe a touch more top-end extension. I would probably need to do an explicit contrasting to confirm those descriptions. Please tell me if you think you have an opinion here. I won't shy away, I liked the JBLs - large black monoliths that they are - a small bit little better - for my ears. And I liked them best with the ML2 amps.
This has gone on for a while now. Thanks for reading. Peter and I had the same flight to Phoenix from whence we flew to our homes. We kept talking about audio during the short flight. I believe the experience was renewing and exhilarating for both of us. It hasn't been a week and I'm still thinking about it. Thank you David.
Here's Part 2 of my commentary on visiting David Karmeli (@ddk) with @PeterA in late March 2022:
I talked about the equipment we saw and used during our listening sessions. The gear is uber-cool, fantastico, three largish horn systems coupled with Lamm electronics and David's superb AS2000 rig, configured with David's expertise - a musical mecca indeed - raise your hand if you'd like to spend even a couple hours listening to your favorite music on these systems.
I see a lot of hands.
Now let me say a bit about what we heard and general impressions. David has a large collection of jazz, classical and rock albums - and its organized! Peter brought with him records from his collection. We spent most of our time listening, with some walking around and moving equipment with chat in between. It was tempting to go 'oh let's hear this', and 'what about that one', and we did some of that but our audiophile instincts kicked in, leading us to use a few select records on each configuration we heard.
From David's collection, Ella and guitarist Joe Pass (Pablo 2310 702) had us from note 1 with sheer beauty and charming simplicity. It's not breathy Ipanema - this is classic girl with guitar jazz music. Ella is magical. The first thing I did when I got home was buy a copy of this album. It's available and relatively inexpensive.
I was really happy that Peter brought this Grumiaux, Beethoven Violin Concerto on Philips 6500 775.
We played other music, some Bach with Trumpet and Organ (Philps 6500 925), Cream's 'Fresh Cream' (Reaction 594 001), Sibelius' 2nd Symphony (Decca SXL 6125) and a Cello Concerto with Rotropovich (whose catalog nbr I did not get right) - and lots of stuff in between, whose titles I did not write down. The two above we played the most.
The Klangfilm Bionor system gave us the best stereo reproduction I have heard. period. I have played records most of my life, but It was here, frst, I underwent a sudden disturbance of my mind coupled with an astonished reverence (shock & awe) for the Neumann cartridge. If you are a vinylist, somehow try to hear this transducer sometime in yr life. I thought I knew Grumiaux on Philips pretty well, but never have I heard his violin sound so sweet and natural. For my experience it is this system (Bionors on ML3s w/ JBL subs on ML2s, LL1.1, LP1, AS200) that is the archetype, the Platonic form representing what is possible in stereo reproduction. These really large wood panels just sat there taking up my view and the room filled with music. It may fade my mind over time but I will never forget it. Truly special.
After that paean to the Bionors you'd think anything else might be a bit of a let down - not true. I could break it down using audiophile words, but I'll co-opt this thread's title to say the TAD and JBL speakers offered the same natural sound as the Klangfilm theater speakers. The differential was a matter of nuance and degree but somewhat obvious. These systems are so clarifying, so straightforwardly at hand to one's ear that variations in their characteristics while small - or what I'll call small - their characteristics are not secrets requirng scrutinized A/B comparisons. We did not go back and forth between them.
Have you heard a live performance, say in a jazz club or concert hall where the tonality was a touch lean, or the stand up bass lacked articulation? Heh. This is partly why such is so difficult to describe using the language of reproduction. As David and Peter describe, one hallmark of natural sound is its realization with an equity of attributes. That means audiophile attributes' such as "micro dynamics" or "frequency incongruities" while possibly informative, are a) of less interest because b) their specificity is is consumed by the whole - offering an experience that is not a sum of parts, an experience that as it moves along is continually integrative, carrying us with it as it flows, without allowing the development of tendency to pick at it. As a reviewer I bear my own self-burden of analysing components and systems that I hear, I literally have to tell myself not to do that. With these three systems that never happened. Music was simply there, in the manner that music in a club or hall is simply there. And it is not by accident or chance. Live acoustic music does not sound natural - it is natural. David's systems sound natural.
Just as Ella was simply there with her guitarist next to her on a stool, standing between and slightly behind the JBLs, blowing our minds with her naturally easy voice. On the JBLs we first listened to her record with the ML2s (18 watts) then David offered to hook up a pair of Lamm M1.1 solid-state 110 watts into 8 ohms (the predecessor to the current M1.2, which I own.). David keeps electronics turned on all the time and the ML2s were nicely warmed-up in their use on the JBL subs, but the M1.1s were not regularly in use and not on. Peter and I carried them out of a corner and put them in place. I wanted to hear the JBLs with an amp I knew really well. The ML2s had shown off their lovely Lamm SET sound. At first, by comparison, the M1.1s sounded like they were on oxygen, struggling - I was dissapointed. But after 45 minutes they were warmed up to a point that they sounded almost as good the SET amps, maybe a touch less sweet maybe not quite as harmonically full. Ella didn't seem to mind, there was no fall-off in our enjoyment.
David described the TAD 2401s as sounding very very similar to the M9500s. And he was right. But ... they were not sonically identical. (and jeez they looked so good.) Imo the TADs were a wee tiny bit drier overall with maybe maybe a touch more top-end extension. I would probably need to do an explicit contrasting to confirm those descriptions. Please tell me if you think you have an opinion here. I won't shy away, I liked the JBLs - large black monoliths that they are - a small bit little better - for my ears. And I liked them best with the ML2 amps.
This has gone on for a while now. Thanks for reading. Peter and I had the same flight to Phoenix from whence we flew to our homes. We kept talking about audio during the short flight. I believe the experience was renewing and exhilarating for both of us. It hasn't been a week and I'm still thinking about it. Thank you David.
Great report Tim! Very interesting. And you happened to mention one of my favorite records. Take Love Easy is perhaps my favorite Ella record and a sonic delight to boot.
Tim, I really enjoyed reading your report of our visit to David's place. Great writing is about communicating ideas. One of my English teachers dramatically improved my writing by telling me to keep it clear and simple. You convey meaning through clarity and flow, not unlike the way David's systems present music.
I think this visit will change the way you think about audio and how you hear all other systems. It may also change the way you write about components and music. We all have our personal references for what is possible. It seems you and I share this one. Live music is the ultimate reference. This system tells me how close we have come to that reference. As you mention, it is not just the gear. It is everything that David has put together from how that panel is grounded and delivers power to the electronics, to how that specific combination of cartridge/arm/table retrieve the information in the grooves, to how the gear and room are set up. We witnessed the culmination of one man's life experience with music and audio. That is to what visitors to Utah are exposed - David's efforts to get as close to live music as he knows how. Others have different approaches to the same goal. We get to hear the various outcomes.
I think anyone (audiophile or not) reading your second passage above will understand what you heard, and how it made you feel, all without the use of words from the glossary of terms. This is the beauty of a well expressed idea. People understand without having experienced the same thing. And for those who appreciate live music and try to approach the experience at home, the clarity and flow of your writing is that much more meaningful.
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Here is my report from the first pilgrimage to Cedar City.
My take away was the Neumann cartridge which was the best I have ever heard as well. On top of that the best turntable I heard that week was the original American Sound and those Bionics were truly remarkable.
Seems you never made it to Zion or Bryce which was an amazing drive as long as you didn't mind speeds of over 110 mph. David is a skilled driver amongst many things and that drive will go down in my memories of total anal incontinence when David came around those blind turns at over 100 mph.
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My take away was the Neumann cartridge which was the best I have ever heard as well. On top of that the best turntable I heard that week was the original American Sound and those Bionics were truly remarkable.
Seems you never made it to Zion or Bryce which was an amazing drive as long as you didn't mind speeds of over 110 mph. David is a skilled driver amongst many things and that drive will go down in my memories of total anal incontinence when David came around those blind turns at over 100 mph.
One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond
One of the things I have always loved about this hobby is how it has always not only allowed me to meet wonderful people over the years who also share the same passion for this hobby. Being retired has also provided that extra time to allow me to travel to places I would normally never get to...
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Tim,
Thank you for your impressions! Yep, you sure "got" it! Between the visit to David and two trips to Munich Hi-End I came away understanding and appreciating the horns + SET audio subculture.
During my brief visit I did not spend as much quality time listening leisurely to David's systems as I had wanted to. But I still consider the Bionors' rendition of Bill Henderson's "Send in the Clowns" to have achieved for me the greatest suspension of disbelief of a live jazz club recording I have ever experienced.
The playback was like a sonic Holodeck, with the giant speakers launching continuous, life-size waves of modulated sound and air that recreated the ambiance, dimensionality and "feel" of a jazz club.
It will be interesting to learn how your visit to David drives your next loudspeaker selection process . . .
Thank you for your impressions! Yep, you sure "got" it! Between the visit to David and two trips to Munich Hi-End I came away understanding and appreciating the horns + SET audio subculture.
During my brief visit I did not spend as much quality time listening leisurely to David's systems as I had wanted to. But I still consider the Bionors' rendition of Bill Henderson's "Send in the Clowns" to have achieved for me the greatest suspension of disbelief of a live jazz club recording I have ever experienced.
The playback was like a sonic Holodeck, with the giant speakers launching continuous, life-size waves of modulated sound and air that recreated the ambiance, dimensionality and "feel" of a jazz club.
It will be interesting to learn how your visit to David drives your next loudspeaker selection process . . .
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Here is my report from the first pilgrimage to Cedar City.
My take away was the Neumann cartridge which was the best I have ever heard as well. On top of that the best turntable I heard that week was the original American Sound and those Bionics were truly remarkable.
Seems you never made it to Zion or Bryce which was an amazing drive as long as you didn't mind speeds of over 110 mph. David is a skilled driver amongst many things and that drive will go down in my memories of total anal incontinence when David came around those blind turns at over 100 mph.
One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond
One of the things I have always loved about this hobby is how it has always not only allowed me to meet wonderful people over the years who also share the same passion for this hobby. Being retired has also provided that extra time to allow me to travel to places I would normally never get to...
Steve, I just read through the first few pages of your thread about your visit to Utah. Interestingly, there were some posts then, back in 2015, that asked about the degree of progress being made in the industry. David was also talking about natural sound back then. That's a nice thread from seven years ago.
You have Wilson Alexias as well as Lee, right? Have since that visit reassessed what they do well and you like compared to what impressed you at David’s? Wondering what a critical analysis yields in that regard? Which system did you like (as in it might give the most long term satisfaction) the most there?
I asked Brad to move his post to this thread. Here is the carry-over background:
Yes, I've had the Alexia Series 2 for almost 5 years with ARC and Lamm electronics. I reviewed them for Positive Feedback in 2018.
Since I returned from the trip to Utah I have not heard my Alexias - they are sitting in an anteroom because currently I have another pair of speakers for review in my audio room. I'd rather wait until I hear them again to make any firm compare/contrast with what I heard at Davids.
Still, I know the Alexia2 over years. In a nutshell, they sound like mid-size Wilson speakers. 8" and 10" pulp cone woofers in their own cabinet topped by a 7" cone midrange (same as in the Alexx 1, Alexandria XLF, etc), 1" silk dome tweeter (also from the Alexx1 and Alexandria XLF.) A variety of Wilson's proprietary composite materials form the cabinet. Previously I had the original Sasha and the Alexia 1. The Alexia2 is considerably improved over the original Alexia. The sound portion of my review should give some insight on what I hear from them.
Which of David's systems that could give me long term satisfaction did I like the most? First, I'm quite confident that I'll continue to enjoy Lamm electronics. Second, I"m also quite confident that I'll never own an AS2000 turntable unless I win the lottery. I probably will continue using Ching-Cheng power cords which seem copacetic with Lamm gear, and I'll continue to use somewhat generic industrial wire for IC and speaker cable. Unless something changes. Gee what's left - oh, yes, speakers.
Upthread from here, where I described the gear we heard, I've already said that the Klangfilm Bionors with the rest of David's setup is the best system I've heard. But again I'm also confident that David does not want me living in his basement. So long-term Bionor satisfaction is probably off the table - nor do I plan to move to Thailand. (Hi Tang, it's me. Tang says 'go make 45kg fish fertilizer, get 1 hour Bionor'.)
So that leaves the TAD 2401 and the JBL M9500. (I"m not sure the RCA woofer/horn speakers we heard were for sale and we only spent a little time with them.) I believe I could achieve long term satisfaction with either. Each with two large woofers establishes a wonderful undergirding for the type of large scale classical / orchestral music that I enjoy. Each proved adept at rendering basses, cellos, trombones, and percussion - the rhythm section - with both weight, power, and articulation. I was surprised at their quickness and their ability to settle -there's a speaker term for that settling but I don't remember what it is. I speculate it is connected with dynamics, but I'm not an expert in knowing what technology yields what sonics. I'm uncertain if this makes sense: Mid-to-lower bass is a key to grounding music in its context. There are performers and where they are performing. Lower frequencies somehow connect the music made with the where to yield the ground of ambience that is the product of both. I don't want to get into the whole space/psycho-acoustics thing. I'm struggling here with the words. It is simpler to say I agree with David that bass is the key to realism.
Then there is the horn, both TAD and JBL had one. Where I am less familiar, and a reason I wanted to hear these speakers, is in their being two-ways. (I'm unclear if the M9500s are pure two-way as each woofer is not identical in frequency coverage.) I'm mostly familiar with three-way speakers. The two-way sound from these had a certain elegance of simplicity - neither never sounded like they were working at it. Listening to Ella, there was a flow, an ease - as I said before the music was simply there. While my Wilson's can be dynamic, they have not that same sense of ease as I heard at David's - at least in the way I have them setup. Top-end was, well I'll cheapen out here and just say the top-end was natural. Between the horn and the Neumann cartridge I cannot parse what to whom.
I could rattle on, but my listening experience was not analytic, so taken was I with the music. In a way tht says it all. The TADs are dimensionally too big for my room. I wish I had a bigger room with a higher celing. I would want something I can use with both my Lamm M1.2 Ref and a pair of Lamm ML2.2s - I started a thread a few years back about speakers for the ML2s so my considerations are not new. I've had the Wilsons just shy of five years.
Yes, I've had the Alexia Series 2 for almost 5 years with ARC and Lamm electronics. I reviewed them for Positive Feedback in 2018.
Since I returned from the trip to Utah I have not heard my Alexias - they are sitting in an anteroom because currently I have another pair of speakers for review in my audio room. I'd rather wait until I hear them again to make any firm compare/contrast with what I heard at Davids.
Still, I know the Alexia2 over years. In a nutshell, they sound like mid-size Wilson speakers. 8" and 10" pulp cone woofers in their own cabinet topped by a 7" cone midrange (same as in the Alexx 1, Alexandria XLF, etc), 1" silk dome tweeter (also from the Alexx1 and Alexandria XLF.) A variety of Wilson's proprietary composite materials form the cabinet. Previously I had the original Sasha and the Alexia 1. The Alexia2 is considerably improved over the original Alexia. The sound portion of my review should give some insight on what I hear from them.
Which of David's systems that could give me long term satisfaction did I like the most? First, I'm quite confident that I'll continue to enjoy Lamm electronics. Second, I"m also quite confident that I'll never own an AS2000 turntable unless I win the lottery. I probably will continue using Ching-Cheng power cords which seem copacetic with Lamm gear, and I'll continue to use somewhat generic industrial wire for IC and speaker cable. Unless something changes. Gee what's left - oh, yes, speakers.
Upthread from here, where I described the gear we heard, I've already said that the Klangfilm Bionors with the rest of David's setup is the best system I've heard. But again I'm also confident that David does not want me living in his basement. So long-term Bionor satisfaction is probably off the table - nor do I plan to move to Thailand. (Hi Tang, it's me. Tang says 'go make 45kg fish fertilizer, get 1 hour Bionor'.)
So that leaves the TAD 2401 and the JBL M9500. (I"m not sure the RCA woofer/horn speakers we heard were for sale and we only spent a little time with them.) I believe I could achieve long term satisfaction with either. Each with two large woofers establishes a wonderful undergirding for the type of large scale classical / orchestral music that I enjoy. Each proved adept at rendering basses, cellos, trombones, and percussion - the rhythm section - with both weight, power, and articulation. I was surprised at their quickness and their ability to settle -there's a speaker term for that settling but I don't remember what it is. I speculate it is connected with dynamics, but I'm not an expert in knowing what technology yields what sonics. I'm uncertain if this makes sense: Mid-to-lower bass is a key to grounding music in its context. There are performers and where they are performing. Lower frequencies somehow connect the music made with the where to yield the ground of ambience that is the product of both. I don't want to get into the whole space/psycho-acoustics thing. I'm struggling here with the words. It is simpler to say I agree with David that bass is the key to realism.
Then there is the horn, both TAD and JBL had one. Where I am less familiar, and a reason I wanted to hear these speakers, is in their being two-ways. (I'm unclear if the M9500s are pure two-way as each woofer is not identical in frequency coverage.) I'm mostly familiar with three-way speakers. The two-way sound from these had a certain elegance of simplicity - neither never sounded like they were working at it. Listening to Ella, there was a flow, an ease - as I said before the music was simply there. While my Wilson's can be dynamic, they have not that same sense of ease as I heard at David's - at least in the way I have them setup. Top-end was, well I'll cheapen out here and just say the top-end was natural. Between the horn and the Neumann cartridge I cannot parse what to whom.
I could rattle on, but my listening experience was not analytic, so taken was I with the music. In a way tht says it all. The TADs are dimensionally too big for my room. I wish I had a bigger room with a higher celing. I would want something I can use with both my Lamm M1.2 Ref and a pair of Lamm ML2.2s - I started a thread a few years back about speakers for the ML2s so my considerations are not new. I've had the Wilsons just shy of five years.
Well there is the excursion , how far the woofer has to go and come back. And there is the grip required on the woofer by the amp to move it. If it does not have to move much, and can be done with less grip, it will be quicker. XMAX and Q parameters
From the What is Fast thread that you started, my example:
In valves, very low output valves with well matched speakers (which are very high efficiency speakers), then keeps slowing down and push pull amps relatively quite slow. Standard cones - Slow. Underdrivern or overgripped - slow.
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Did you find it more coherent than what you are used to? 2-ways can be more coherent, but here there is one driver with horn loading and other with cone loading.
Yes, my limited understanding of excursion is out and back. But I thought there was terminology about how quickly a speaker returns to its default state. Brad or Bill may know.
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