Crystal Disc US$1600 was played with Genesis Speaker

[Bruce B]

Is this version better than any other formats we have (ie DSD, hires digital,vinyl tape) OR is it just a better version of the redbook CD because if you say it's better than any other format what would we think and if it is merely better than the standard redbook version then we can spend $1000 on a redbook CD which isn't as good as other formats

This is just another way to present a CD. Winston has done it with different CD materials. We even have SHaM discs. I bet the BLER rates are still above 5/per on a good day and it "may" be easier on your error correction system, but in my testing, there is NO audible difference between BLER rates of .5 , 5 or even 50, just as long as it's under the 220 RedBook spec.

 

[NorthStar]

Andymodern (Andy), can you please tell us more about those Crystal Discs?

And Gary, what do you know, more?

 

[DaveyF]

This guy today just bought an older 1967 Ferrari convertible for $27 and a half millions! ...$27.5 million dollars!
...Most ever paid for a single car at an auction; only ten were made. ...Just google it.
{Most of the proceeds from that auction sale goes to charity.}

So, that would be people with money, and lots of it! ...And that, is their medication.

Bob, once again you are onto something here. I think that what most (perhaps all) of us have a problem relating to is the amount of wealth out there. A $1600 CD is truly less than chump change to many people. As an example of this, I was talking to another professional who is representing a client who made $750Million in just over 24hrs!! He is among a rather elite group, BUT this group is expanding more than many of us know. I happened to hear an interesting comment from one of these people a few months ago....it went like this: " in the old days a $1B was considered a lot of money, that's not really the case anymore!". So, with that said, what's a $1600- CD or for that matter a $16Million CD, or a $27.5Million Ferrari??

 

[andymodern]

I see a "DSD" label on here even though it's a CD at 16/44.1 Isn't that misleading? Wouldn't the original DSD files on a SACD be better?

Actually next to DSD, there is another logo WSD which stands for wideband single-bit data. All we want to bring up is to emphasize that the recording was done in 1 bit DSD format. We have wording on the right side of the CD (and on the CD cover) stating "5.6448Mega Hz 1 bit DSD recording". (More info about WSD: http://www.kintal.net/m1/portfolio/show/title/wsd-wideband-si/src/@random4eff3cab96092 )

And we also have the CD logo to tells this is a CD. I think a company in Japan did a single-layer SACD in Crystal Disc. In that case, SACD logo will be placed on the disc.

We have audiophiles who actually bought the expensive Crystal Disc. I believe it is because they still own a CD player and want to enjoy hi-end music.

And it is strange that SACD is not very popular in Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Audiophiles here still like normal CD/HQCD/SHM-CD which are considered even better when the recording is mastered using XRCD or K2HD or LPCD.

 

[andymodern]

The other day I thought each disc was $1000 and then I thought Gary said they were actually under a $1000 and now Andymodern says they are $1600 each. I don't know what the truth is.

The manufacturer of Crystal Disc - Memory-Tech, the largest CD factory in Japan, licensed quite a few titles from the record companies such as Denon, Pony Canyon and Avex Trax, etc. and released by themselves in Crystal Disc in a budget price in order to attract more audiophiles. The price is under US$1000. Please check out the titles in this link http://www.modernaudio.com/main/index.php?cPath=65&&language=en

However when you look at the normal market, most of the other record companies in Japan will mark the price at JPY200,000 (about US$2050); those in Hong Kong will normally mark at US$1650. Please consider that copyright license and royalty fee issue will end up with higher production cost!

 

[andymodern]

Andymodern (Andy), can you please tell us more about those Crystal Discs?

And Gary, what do you know, more?

I love to. According to the manufacturer, i was the first person outside Japan to visit their plant producing Crystal Disc. I will do a little preparation and post here.

But what i can tell is that once you hear Crystal Disc, you will love it!

 

[FrantzM]

Bob, once again you are onto something here. I think that what most (perhaps all) of us have a problem relating to is the amount of wealth out there. A $1600 CD is truly less than chump change to many people. As an example of this, I was talking to another professional who is representing a client who made $750Million in just over 24hrs!! He is among a rather elite group, BUT this group is expanding more than many of us know. I happened to hear an interesting comment from one of these people a few months ago....it went like this: " in the old days a $1B was considered a lot of money, that's not really the case anymore!". So, with that said, what's a $1600- CD or for that matter a $16Million CD, or a $27.5Million Ferrari??

Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar

This guy today just bought an older 1967 Ferrari convertible for $27 and a half millions! ...$27.5 million dollars!
...Most ever paid for a single car at an auction; only ten were made. ...Just google it.
{Most of the proceeds from that auction sale goes to charity.}

So, that would be people with money, and lots of it! ...And that, is their medication.

That is not the matter here. The Ferrari could be taken as an Art Object .. .One could buy a painting for whatever one can or want or a house ..or a ... You get the drift .. This CD at that ungodly and frankly incredible amount should do better than a rip from it .. It is not sold as an object d'Art but rather as a superior technological product .. It must past that muster: Truly sounding better. Does it? Better is it able to? Is there something other than blind faith and/or wishful thinking to support its claims to superiority? Those are the questions. Not what people with lot of money want to do with it and whther it is their medication ... That is moving the goalpost. We'll leave the use of "elite' in this context for another discussion ...

 

[edorr]

Bob, once again you are onto something here. I think that what most (perhaps all) of us have a problem relating to is the amount of wealth out there. A $1600 CD is truly less than chump change to many people. As an example of this, I was talking to another professional who is representing a client who made $750Million in just over 24hrs!! He is among a rather elite group, BUT this group is expanding more than many of us know. I happened to hear an interesting comment from one of these people a few months ago....it went like this: " in the old days a $1B was considered a lot of money, that's not really the case anymore!". So, with that said, what's a $1600- CD or for that matter a $16Million CD, or a $27.5Million Ferrari??

Anyone saying (and actually believing) that $1Bn. (personal net worth I presume), is "not a lot of money anymore", is living proof that ability to acquire extreme wealth and being mental retarded are not mutually exclusive states.

 

[NorthStar]

I love to. According to the manufacturer, i was the first person outside Japan to visit their plant producing Crystal Disc. I will do a little preparation and post here.

But what i can tell is that once you hear Crystal Disc, you will love it!

Thanks Andy, and take all the time that you need. ...I am most interested to further my knowledge on them 'Crystal Discs' and their superior sound quality.

I am certain that there is more than just money in the matter, and it goes even beyond our ears; perhaps into greater emotional transitional listening impact between the artists and the music reproduced from them Discs speaking directly to the soul of men and women with an attribute to differentiate and appreciate the greater musical involvement and all.

_________________

* Frantz, the Ferrari convertible is nothing;
it's just a piece of metal and glass and rubber with a motor inside and intended to transport you from point A to point B.
I simply used it as a transitional monetary comparison, that's all. ...Davey perfectly understood the meaning of my post.
{I was just giving Marty only one take (viewpoint) on his prior post's comment, to put things in a kind of comprehensible perspective.}

 

[andymodern]

Explain to me how the raw digital data stored on a $1600 disc is any different than the raw data stored on a $10 disc. One could argue that the $1600 disc somehow allows a transport to extract this data from a player with lower error rates, but an error corrected copy of this data on a harddrive is bit for bit the same information. Reading the discs with a memory player there should also be absolutely zero difference between what the player loads into memory.

We know that glass master is used for making metal stamper which is used to press poly-carbonate CD. But Crystal Disc is something more than glass master. So what is it?

The following description is provided by Memory-Tech in Japan to tell us what Crystal Disc is:
Crystal disc, a revolutionary Compact Disc using glass substrate, this new technology allows sound reproduction at a level previously unknown and is as close to the master sound source as cutting edge technology allows. For this purpose, Crystal disc is fabricated by our Laser Disc technology cultivated over many years with using the best selected materials.

??The use of glass substrate instead of conventional polycarbonate substrate. As the reflective layer, gold is adopted in exchange for conventional aluminum.

??For pit transcription, Photo Polymerization process (2P process) using a metal stamper is adopted. This process makes pit transcription highly precise compared with the conventional injection molding process. The technology of 2P process was cultivated by our production of test discs for calibrating industrial optical pick up heads.

??Surface flatness of glass substrate is much superior to the conventional CD. Glass substrate is hardly influenced by the variation of temperature and humidity. Furthermore, the absence of bi-refringence coming from the optical uniformity of glass substrate realized signal with extremely low noise and low jitter.

Comparsion of Reproduced singal


Photo Polymerization process

 

[rockitman]

seems to me that players that error correct on the fly versus a memory buffer type reader would in fact benefit with the crystal substrate as there would be presumably less read error correction compared to conventional plastic cd's. I do not see any advantage if your transport is a memory style reader however, given the same master tape.

 

[MylesBAstor]

And it is strange that SACD is not very popular in Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Audiophiles here still like normal CD/HQCD/SHM-CD which are considered even better when the recording is mastered using XRCD or K2HD or LPCD.

That's interesting! Why is that?

 

[MylesBAstor]

We know that glass master is used for making metal stamper which is used to press poly-carbonate CD. But Crystal Disc is something more than glass master. So what is it?

The following description is provided by Memory-Tech in Japan to tell us what Crystal Disc is:
Crystal disc, a revolutionary Compact Disc using glass substrate, this new technology allows sound reproduction at a level previously unknown and is as close to the master sound source as cutting edge technology allows. For this purpose, Crystal disc is fabricated by our Laser Disc technology cultivated over many years with using the best selected materials.

??The use of glass substrate instead of conventional polycarbonate substrate. As the reflective layer, gold is adopted in exchange for conventional aluminum.

??For pit transcription, Photo Polymerization process (2P process) using a metal stamper is adopted. This process makes pit transcription highly precise compared with the conventional injection molding process. The technology of 2P process was cultivated by our production of test discs for calibrating industrial optical pick up heads.

??Surface flatness of glass substrate is much superior to the conventional CD. Glass substrate is hardly influenced by the variation of temperature and humidity. Furthermore, the absence of bi-refringence coming from the optical uniformity of glass substrate realized signal with extremely low noise and low jitter.

Comparsion of Reproduced singal
View attachment 11353

Photo Polymerization process
View attachment 11354

I said many, many years ago -not without much derisive laughter- that there was more loss in going from a digital master to a CD than from an analog tape to LP. In other words, digital recordings were a lot better than what we [audiophiles] were hearing. In particular, the CDs lost the master's sense of space and harmonic integrity. I think nowadays the different mastering techniques (such as Winston and others are doing) along with better playback equipment and higher Rez files have closed that gap.

 

[DonH50]

@Myles: That does not jive with my memory of the early digital recording process but whatever. The big limitations were the ADCs, then the DACs...

Regarding the plots, where is the signal being probed? Output of the optical receiver (doubtful, too clean), after the detector and EQ, ??? Are they claiming the large amplitude increase is due to the better CD construction? The eye diagrams are not normal single- or two-UI spans so it is hard to see what to get out of them. From what I can tell looking at fuzzy captures on my notebook there is very little difference in the eye patterns (save the amplitude).

edit: Tom jumped in ahead of me, slow typer...

 

[andymodern]

And it is strange that SACD is not very popular in Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Audiophiles here still like normal CD/HQCD/SHM-CD which are considered even better when the recording is mastered using XRCD or K2HD or LPCD.

That's interesting! Why is that?

There was a SACD production line in Hong Kong 8 years ago. That was the 2nd plant in Asia (1st one in Japan). But they couldn't get enough orders as they planned to. The plant closed down after 3 years operation. Why was that? Sony and Philips were kind of competing each other and put a lots of SACD with bad recording content into the market. Ordinary people didn't care about audiophile-grade music. They wanted MP3. Audiophiles didn't like SACD because they couldn't tell which SACD would be good!

Then audiophiles started talking about that the CD layer of a hybrid SACD couldn't reproduce sound as good as a conventional CD. So they abandoned SACD and went back to conventional CD.

 

[NorthStar]

There was a SACD production line in Hong Kong 8 years ago. That was the 2nd plant in Asia (1st one in Japan). But they couldn't get enough orders as they planned to. The plant closed down after 3 years operation. Why was that? Sony and Philips were kind of competing each other and put a lots of SACD with bad recording content into the market. Ordinary people didn't care about audiophile-grade music. They wanted MP3. Audiophiles didn't like SACD because they couldn't tell which SACD would be good!

Then audiophiles started talking about that the CD layer of a hybrid SACD couldn't reproduce sound as good as a conventional CD. So they abandoned SACD and went back to conventional CD.

Wow, and all that time I thought that it was the other way around!
...Because the DSD process was/is used in most SACDs for their CD layer (derived from the superior SACD mastering/re-mastering).

 

[DonH50]

It should be, but marketing trumps engineering most of the time...

 

[NorthStar]

It should be, but marketing trumps engineering most of the time...

Not only it should be Don, but it does too. ...According to my own listening tests, and also according to many (most, all) experts.

 

[andymodern]

Wow, and all that time I thought that it was the other way around!
...Because the DSD process was/is used in most SACDs for their CD layer (derived from the superior SACD mastering/re-mastering).

Last year I produced a sampler in HQCDII (HQCDII was launched in Hong Kong last year by Memory-Tech and us. This title was the 1st HQCDII in the world.) I made a few test-pressing with and without printing on the CD surface. I found the one without printing could provide more superior sound. I think this explain why the CD layer of hybrid SACD doesn't sound as good as a conventional CD because the SACD layer on top of CD layer affects the reflection of the laser light in a way that more errors occur.

 

[Bruce B]

seems to me that players that error correct on the fly versus a memory buffer type reader would in fact benefit with the crystal substrate as there would be presumably less read error correction compared to conventional plastic cd's. I do not see any advantage if your transport is a memory style reader however, given the same master tape.

As long as the CD's are under the RedBook spec of 220 BLER, then it shouldn't be a problem. I produced CD's with a BLER of .5 BLER and couldn't tell a difference!

Plus, the amplitude a CD is not going to change. it's always going to be 16-bit. The mastering and filtering have more influence on the sound quality of a CD than the material..."if any"!