CES 2016: Audio Note, KONDO

[amirm]

Can't say the King of Audio approves of a ribbon driver sitting back like this on top of the woofer box, diffracting like crazy around those sharp corners and generating who knows what radiation pattern:

Couldn't they find three equal sized tubes for the front? The little guy on the right completely screws up the look.

 

[Blizzard]

I love how they didn't take the effort to flush mount it, but they took the effort to put a shiny coat of polyurethane on the mounting plate. Or did they forget to peel the plastic off? The book matching of the veneer is quite poor as well.

 

[853guy]

Can't say the King of Audio approves of a ribbon driver sitting back like this on top of the woofer box, diffracting like crazy around those sharp corners and generating who knows what radiation pattern:

I love how they didn't take the effort to flush mount it, but they took the effort to put a shiny coat of polyurethane on the mounting plate. Or did they forget to peel the plastic off? The book matching of the veneer is quite poor as well. They should stick to high distortion electronics I think

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/01/kaiser-kawero-classic-speakers-update.html

Really interesting company, with quite a different approach to driver selection and radiation patterns. For instance, the RAAL is only employed above 5.5k, as the Audio Technology C-Quence 18 covers 60Hz-5.5k by itself, filled in with an ABR on the rear to compensate for the loss of response power from its baffle step. It also employs a combination of mono/dipole/omni radiation patterns for a mix of direct and diffuse sounds. Hope to pay them a visit later in the year.

Blizz, here's what goes inside a pair of the standard version:



Knowing the effort they go to for their finishes, I'd say the book matching was the result of attempting to get these ready for the show (if you click on the link you can see the preparation process).

 

[Blizzard]

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/01/kaiser-kawero-classic-speakers-update.html

Really interesting company, with quite a different approach to driver selection and radiation patterns. For instance, the RAAL is only employed above 5.5k, as the Audio Technology C-Quence 18 covers 60Hz-5.5k by itself, filled in with an ABR on the rear to compensate for the loss of response power from its baffle step. It also employs a combination of mono/dipole/omni radiation patterns for a mix of direct and diffuse sounds. Hope to pay them a visit later in the year.

Blizz, here's what goes inside a pair of the standard version:

View attachment 25530

Great looking parts. I'm familiar with them all. I just think they need to work on their cabinet building skills. The cabinet is also part of the speaker.

I know of lots of low cost kits that have a similar parts list. And you can have the cabinets built by a master craftsmen to the highest standards possible as well. What do they charge for a pair of those?

These can be built with the Dueland's and the highest standard of cabinet build quality for under $15000. Although nothing wrong with the Jantzen Xover parts at all. Very close to the Dueland's.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATS-4.htm

 

[853guy]

Great looking parts. I'm familiar with them all. I just think they need to work on their cabinet building skills. The cabinet is also part of the speaker.

I know of lots of low cost kits that have a similar parts list. And you can have the cabinets built by a master craftsmen to the highest standards possible as well. What do they charge for a pair of those?

Like I say, their cabinet building skills are actually pretty impressive in the flesh, and they're CNC milled from Panzerholz (with interior acoustic labyrinths) which is notoriously difficult to work with. Pictures are one thing, y'know?

Oh, and not cheap. Circa €60K. You can also get with with an external Duelund crossover for, well... quite a bit more. If I do make it to Regensburg, I'll take some better pics.

 

[Blizzard]

Like I say, their cabinet building skills are actually pretty impressive in the flesh, and they're CNC milled from Panzerholz (with interior acoustic labyrinths) which is notoriously difficult to work with. Pictures are one thing, y'know?

Oh, and not cheap. Circa €60K. You can also get with with an external Duelund crossover for, well... quite a bit more. If I do make it to Regensburg, I'll take some better pics.

I can imagine they sound wonderful. But I have a hard time getting excited about a pair of speakers like that for 60000 Euro's. I could build a replica myself for under $10000 my cost, and do a better job on the cabinets.

 

[853guy]

I can imagine they sound wonderful. But I have a hard time getting excited about a pair of speakers like that for 60000 Euro's. I could build a replica myself for under $10000 my cost, and do a better job on the cabinets.

Blizz, like all things you say you "could" do, I have no doubt that you could also build the Giza pyramids for less and make them all a lot more betterer. You do know the cost of Panzerholz relative to MDF, right?

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz, like all things you say you "could" do, I have no doubt that you could also build the Giza pyramids for less and make them all a lot more betterer. You do know the cost of Panzerholz relative to MDF, right?

Do you really think that wood is exclusive to them? I can buy any wood in the world through the hardwood place I deal with. MDF is junk. Even standard hardwoods cost 50x as much by volume. I still say the cabinet build quality is like a high school woodworking project. This is my idea of impressive cabinet build quality:



or these :

 

[853guy]

Do you really think that wood is exclusive to them? I can buy any wood in the world through the hardwood place I deal with. MDF is junk. Even standard hardwoods cost 50x as much by volume. I still say the cabinet build quality is like a high school woodworking project. This is my idea of impressive cabinet build quality:

No, Panzerholz is available to anyone who wants to purchase it. Manufacturers... DIY-ers... guys who continually talk about stuff they "could" do.

Skin in the game, Blizz. You still don't have any. But when you do, I'm sure many will look forward to making the same assumptions you do, and all from photographs they've seen on the internet.

P.S. Strictly speaking, Panzerholz is a composite.

 

[Blizzard]

No, Panzerholz is available to anyone who wants to purchase it. Manufacturers... DIY-ers... guys who continually talk about stuff they "could" do.

Skin in the game, Blizz. You still don't have any. But when you do, I'm sure many will look forward to making the same assumptions you do, and all from photographs they've seen on the internet.

P.S. Strictly speaking, Panzerholz is a composite.

This is why if you're going to charge 60000 Euros for a pair of speakers, you better do a good job on the cabinets. Like match the wood grain of the fronts to the tops, and flush mount the drivers would be a good start. I have been doing wood working since I was 10 years old, and building speakers for 20 years, so things like this stick out like a sore thumb to me.

Great example here of some proper built cabinets in these $2995 speakers with top notch drivers and xover parts. I bet if you gave them an extra $500, they would even build them out of Panzerholz.

The North American distributor is right here in Canada

http://www.bkbindustrial.com/#





http://www.clearwavespeakers.com/product/1222773

 

[853guy]

This is why if you're going to charge 60000 Euros for a pair of speakers, you better do a good job on the cabinets. Like match the wood grain of the fronts to the tops, and flush mount the drivers would be a good start. I have been doing wood working since I was 10 years old, and building speakers for 20 years, so things like this stick out like a sore thumb to me.

Blizz... Blizzy, Blizzy, Blizz-Blizz...!

I love you. Honestly, as another individual on God's green Earth, and especially, as one who has responsibility for the stewardship of others whose age makes them entirely dependent on our choices, I love you as a brother. Okay, a cousin. Maybe a second-cousin.

But coming back to the skin-in-the-game thing, comparing three disparately priced products - one a €60K phenolic composite transducer, one a €360K carbon/kevlar transducer, and the other, a $3K MDF thing with some nice veneer - having seen them solely from pictures on the interwebs, and then post judgments about them on the same said interwebs is not a comparison with any inherent veracity relative to anything other than what you think having made a judgement from looking at some pictures on the internet. That's called an opinion. And frankly, not a very informed one. I’m sure you can do better than that.

The difference right now between Kaiser Acoustics Classic at €60K and your replica at $10K, is that I can go listen to the Classic. Hopefully later in the year I will. And I can, because it actually exists somewhere other than inside your brain being unloaded via your keyboard onto the internet. What’s more, if I bought it, it’d come with a warranty, nicely packaged in flight cases, set up by the dealer, with manuals, made by a family-owned business that pays its employees and its country its taxes.

Skin in the game, Blizz. Kaiser Acoustics has it. As of post number two thousand, eight hundred and twenty seven, you’re still yet to acquire any.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz... Blizzy, Blizzy, Blizz-Blizz...!

I love you. Honestly, as another individual on God's green Earth, and especially, as one who has responsibility for the stewardship of others whose age makes them entirely dependent on our choices, I love you as a brother. Okay, a cousin. Maybe a second-cousin.

But coming back to the skin-in-the-game thing, comparing three disparately priced products - one a €60K phenolic composite transducer, one a €360K carbon/kevlar transducer, and the other, a $3K MDF thing with some nice veneer - having seen them solely from pictures on the interwebs, and then post judgments about them on the same said interwebs is not a comparison with any inherent veracity relative to anything other than what you think having made a judgement from looking at some pictures on the internet. That's called an opinion. And frankly, not a very informed one. I’m sure you can do better than that.

The difference right now between Kaiser Acoustics Classic at €60K and your replica at $10K, is that I can go listen to the Classic. Hopefully later in the year I will. And I can, because it actually exists somewhere other than inside your brain being unloaded via your keyboard onto the internet. What’s more, if I bought it, it’d come with a warranty, nicely packaged in flight cases, set up by the dealer, with manuals, made by a family-owned business that pays its employees and its country its taxes.

Skin in the game, Blizz. Kaiser Acoustics has it. As of post number two thousand, eight hundred and twenty seven, you’re still yet to acquire any.

I understand the perks of going through a dealer network. But no matter what you say they could have done a better job on the cabinet for 60000 Euros. For that price it should look good in pictures and in person. I'm not judging the sound at all. I can imagine they sound wonderful. And the target audience won't flinch at the price. In fact they wouldn't be interested if it was sold for any less I'm sure.

The guys who build systems of the same quality for far less pay taxes and have families as well. So if someone really want's to spend that kind of money for moral reasons, they can easily buy the lower cost one, and donate the difference to their favourite charity. This way they won't lose any sleep over it.

 

[853guy]

I understand the perks of going through a dealer network. But no matter what you say they could have done a better job on the cabinet for 60000 Euros. For that price it should look good in pictures and in person. I'm not judging the sound at all. I can imagine they sound wonderful. And the target audience won't flinch at the price. In fact they wouldn't be interested if it was sold for any less I'm sure.

Blizz, I know you’re not judging the sound. You’re making judgments of the build quality of a pre-production prototype made for CES. And comparing it to two products costing 6x more and 10x less. Neither of which is made from Panzerholz, or shares the same topology. From some pictures lifted from the internet.

The guys who build systems of the same quality for far less pay taxes and have families as well. So if someone really want's to spend that kind of money for moral reasons, they can easily buy the lower cost one, and donate the difference to their favourite charity. This way they won't lose any sleep over it.

Cool, Blizz. Not feeling comfortable making those sorts of judgments from a bunch of low-res images myself, I’ll leave the judgements about moral superiority to you.

Anyhoo.

Now, finally, with post number 2,836 I can no longer deny your powers of deduction are exceptional. I can’t allow you to waste them here when there are so many internet images to be compared at this very moment. Go, go, for the good of the city!

 

[asiufy]

Blizz... Blizzy, Blizzy, Blizz-Blizz...!

I love you. Honestly, as another individual on God's green Earth, and especially, as one who has responsibility for the stewardship of others whose age makes them entirely dependent on our choices, I love you as a brother. Okay, a cousin. Maybe a second-cousin.

But coming back to the skin-in-the-game thing, comparing three disparately priced products - one a €60K phenolic composite transducer, one a €360K carbon/kevlar transducer, and the other, a $3K MDF thing with some nice veneer - having seen them solely from pictures on the interwebs, and then post judgments about them on the same said interwebs is not a comparison with any inherent veracity relative to anything other than what you think having made a judgement from looking at some pictures on the internet. That's called an opinion. And frankly, not a very informed one. I’m sure you can do better than that.

The difference right now between Kaiser Acoustics Classic at €60K and your replica at $10K, is that I can go listen to the Classic. Hopefully later in the year I will. And I can, because it actually exists somewhere other than inside your brain being unloaded via your keyboard onto the internet. What’s more, if I bought it, it’d come with a warranty, nicely packaged in flight cases, set up by the dealer, with manuals, made by a family-owned business that pays its employees and its country its taxes.

Skin in the game, Blizz. Kaiser Acoustics has it. As of post number two thousand, eight hundred and twenty seven, you’re still yet to acquire any.

Since there's no "like" button, here's my "you're my hero" thank you post

Anyway, I heard (and saw) both the 60k speaker as well as the 365k euro one. Guess which one sounds better? Yes, the 60k one. By a long, long shot. That particular combination with Kondo was absolutely gorgeous, the epitome of the "lush tube sound".

The $365k one? I wouldn't want it as a door stop.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz, I know you’re not judging the sound. You’re making judgments of the build quality of a pre-production prototype made for CES. And comparing it to two products costing 6x more and 10x less. Neither of which is made from Panzerholz, or shares the same topology. From some pictures lifted from the internet.



Cool, Blizz. Not feeling comfortable making those sorts of judgments from a bunch of low-res images myself, I’ll leave the judgements about moral superiority to you.

Anyhoo.

Now, finally, with post number 2,836 I can no longer deny your powers of deduction are exceptional. I can’t allow you to waste them here when there are so many internet images to be compared at this very moment. Go, go, for the good of the city!

Well maybe if they stumble upon this thread they will decide to do a better job on the production models. No harm done then right? It's just called constructive criticism. But you'd think an important show like CES they would have done this already.

The cheap speaker was to demonstrate the proper way to match the wood grain on the veneer, and flush mounting of the drivers. Not to judge the total package. If this level of attention to detail can be done on a $3000 pair of speakers, I'm sure it's possible at the 60000 euro price point.

 

[Blizzard]

Since there's no "like" button, here's my "you're my hero" thank you post

Anyway, I heard (and saw) both the 60k speaker as well as the 365k euro one. Guess which one sounds better? Yes, the 60k one. By a long, long shot. That particular combination with Kondo was absolutely gorgeous, the epitome of the "lush tube sound".

The $365k one? I wouldn't want it as a door stop.

Once again my comment wasn't on the sound. I can't hear them through the forum, but I can visually see them. If they were in my living room I would be able to see them as well.

 

[853guy]

Since there's no "like" button, here's my "you're my hero" thank you post ?

Anyway, I heard (and saw) both the 60k speaker as well as the 365k euro one. Guess which one sounds better? Yes, the 60k one. By a long, long shot. That particular combination with Kondo was absolutely gorgeous, the epitome of the "lush tube sound".

The $365k one? I wouldn't want it as a door stop.

Pfff. Asiufy, occasionally I wear underpants outside my chinos, but that’s usually by mistake.

Yeah, I had heard the Marten’s weren’t great. Lots of money thrown at a problem is often no more successful than making judgments of a component’s build quality by looking at pictures on the internet. But, as someone who occasionally wears his underpants on the outside of his clothing, what would I know?

Well maybe if they stumble upon this thread they will decide to do a better job on the production models. No harm done then right? It's just called constructive criticism. But you'd think an important show like CES they would have done this already.

No, in order for criticism to be considered “constructive”, it has to usually occur within a context in which the recipient of the criticism is open to said criticism, which is often concomitant with the one giving the criticism having skin in the game. Otherwise, it’s called “giving an opinion”. But again, if having skin in the game was important to you, you be calling Kaiser Acoustics and sharing your valuable insights with them in person, rather than calling them out virtually on an internet forum. I mean, you “could” do that, just like you “could” build a replica for $10K. Whether you ever will, well, we've been here before.

The cheap speaker was to demonstrate the proper way to match the wood grain on the veneer, and flush mounting of the drivers. Not to judge the total package. If this level of attention to detail can be done on a $3000 pair of speakers, I'm sure it's possible at the 60000 euro price point.

The RAAL on the standard version is usually mounted flush. This version has a new higher-efficiency waveguide, so perhaps, though I would be foolish to give any reason for its placement based on a few images, it needs to be fitted in the manner it is here.

In any case, though these veneers are not, alas, book-matched, personally, I’d be willing to give them space in my living room, should you fail to produce your digitally-active system with book-matched veneers that “could” take the Kaiser on, if only it existed. Given the attention to detail you lavish on your entirely speculative posts here on this forum, I’m sure that will be possible at your price-point.





(Images used without permission. Mods, Mono&Stereo and Perfect Sense, please delete if necessary.)

 

[Blizzard]

Pfff. Asiufy, occasionally I wear underpants outside my chinos, but that’s usually by mistake.

Yeah, I had heard the Marten’s weren’t great. Lots of money thrown at a problem is often no more successful than making judgments of a component’s build quality by looking at pictures on the internet. But, as someone who occasionally wears his underpants on the outside of his clothing, what would I know?



No, in order for criticism to be considered “constructive”, it has to usually occur within a context in which the recipient of the criticism is open to said criticism, which is often concomitant with the one giving the criticism having skin in the game. Otherwise, it’s called “giving an opinion”. But again, if having skin in the game was important to you, you be calling Kaiser Acoustics and sharing your valuable insights with them in person, rather than calling them out virtually on an internet forum. I mean, you “could” do that, just like you “could” build a replica for $10K. Whether you ever will, well, we've been here before.



The RAAL on the standard version is usually mounted flush. This version has a new higher-efficiency waveguide, so perhaps, though I would be foolish to give any reason for its placement based on a few images, it needs to be fitted in the manner it is here.

In any case, though these veneers are not, alas, book-matched, personally, I’d be willing to give them space in my living room, should you fail to produce your digitally-active system with book-matched veneers that “could” take the Kaiser on, if only it existed. Given the attention to detail you lavish on your entirely speculative posts here on this forum, I’m sure that will be possible at your price-point.

View attachment 25541

View attachment 25542

(Images used without permission. Mods, Mono&Stereo and Perfect Sense, please delete if necessary.)

This one is properly book matched on the front. It's a flat cut burl veneer without a distinctive grain pattern. So it's a bit more forgiving even if the pattern on the top doesn't match up. It takes great skill and very careful planning to properly match the grain patterns with flat cut veneers. But this is what separates the wheat from the chaff. This type of veneer is very brittle as well. You must be careful with handling it.

 

[KeithR]

heard the Kaisers in Newport on big Berning tube amps in a fully digital system (100k?) - gorgeous looking/sounding speakers that day. In fact, many chose the system as best in show, including our fearless leader Steve Williams as I recall.

I believe the tweeter box is adjustable.

 

[amirm]

I can imagine they sound wonderful. But I have a hard time getting excited about a pair of speakers like that for 60000 Euro's. I could build a replica myself for under $10000 my cost, and do a better job on the cabinets.

How much do you value your time in that 10K build? And how many prototype mistake costs?