Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

[astrotoy]

For athletes, I think it is clear that both the competition and equipment has to be figured into the equation for GOAT. Longevity is also generally important. When I was a kid, George Mikan was basketball's superstar, and his team won 7 championships in nine years. Similar to Joe DiMaggio, Mikan's NBA had no African-American players for about half his career. BTW, his main team was the Lakers. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated in the '90s with fellow Laker centers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Shaquille O'Neal.

BTW, having a sports team change locations so that the nick name makes no sense is something I never have understood. The Lakers is one - where Minnesota is the land of 10,000 lakes, Los Angeles doesn't have any. The Utah Jazz is another one. When the Fort Wayne Pistons moved to Detroit, that change did make sense.

Larry

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Al, if there being "little room for interpretation to the contrary" is the standard, we can read reports from those who have heard the Neumann cartridge and compared it to other top cartridges they have heard. The reports I have read seem to suggest that it is favored. I have never read a single report that suggests otherwise. I consider those reports plus my own direct experience and comparisons, and I reach the same conclusion. There does seem little room here and that is why I made the claim with confidence. People are free to disagree, but I would simply ask what cartridge they would consider to be better and why, and we could then have a productive discussion about it.

If I read somewhere someone claiming a particular cartridge was better than the Neumann, it would surely get my attention. I would want to know more and why he thought so.

And that is why I think such discussions of what people consider to be the best are important. The next step is understanding why something is considered to be best. Just as with the Webb telescope and the far reaches of space, the Neumann allows me, and apparently most others who have heard it, to hear more of what is in those grooves.

DaVa FC-A1 a field coil contender

whow! been playing for about 5-6 hours now and this is a killer...... better channel separation, better resolution, faster, wider and deeper 3D stage bonus...much easier to dial in on VTA harmonics to die for Wow, those are already unbelievably good with the A1!

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Tuckers]

The new Corvette is definitely the best car ever. Faster 0-60 than supercars 5x the price, made in the USA, better looking than any Italian car, and it can carry 2 sets of golf clubs. It also has the best color ever, the fluorescent yellow reflects the most light and is the safest. And it does all this for around $75k, a great value. I don't see how anyone could possibly disagree with this, it's FACT. All the above are FACTS, darn it! IT"S THE BESTEST CAR EVER! NO BETTER CAR HAS EVER EXISTED, CAN'T YOU SEE THAT!

Nah. Its Rolls Royce Phantom.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Citröen-Maserati SM.

 

[PeterA]

Goldfinger.

 

[tima]

Goldfinger.

"All my life I’ve been in love with it's color, its brilliance, its divine heaviness.”
Operation GrandSlam.

But Rosa Kleb is worth a look.

 

[PeterA]

"All my life I’ve been in love with it's color, its brilliance, its divine heaviness.”
Operation GrandSlam.

But Rosa Kleb is worth a look.

The sisters, the car, the names. The first four are the real contenders, IMO, but the third is best.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Die Another Day. Bond never having surfed before means no film comes close.

 

[DasguteOhr]

"All my life I’ve been in love with it's color, its brilliance, its divine heaviness.”
Operation GrandSlam.

But Rosa Kleb is worth a look.

The best bond scene ever...
James Bond: "Do you expect me to talk?"
Goldfinger: "No, Mr. Bond - I expect you to die!"

P.S
Javier Bardem" Skyfall"is a great villain
the dialogues between him and bond alone were worth the money for the cinema ticket

 

[tima]

The best bond scene ever...
James Bond: "Do you expect me to talk?"
Goldfinger: "No, Mr. Bond - I expect you to die!"

P.S
Javier Bardem" Skyfall"is a great villain
the dialogues between him and bond alone were worth the money for the cinema ticket

That's not just any printer Mr. Bond, it's a laser printer.

 

[stehno]

MJ is and was the greatest of all time!

Elliot, you've never been so right about a high-end audio subject than you are right here. Seriously though, I've noticed that you've been making some rather admirable statements here and in other threads of late that have not gone unappreciated.

I thnk this 3 min youtube video says just barely enough about Michael Jordan's talents and his being the undeniable GOAT. Oh, and that free throw he takes in this video during a game with his eyes closed, he made the basket just as he done so at other times. In fact, just before this shot, MJ said to opposing player Mutumbo(sp), "Hey, Mutumbo, watch this". Just to piss Mutumbo off.

What an entertainer above all else.

I suggest going to full-screen and adding some volume for best effects. And you might wanna' put your seatbelt on.

 

[Malcng]

This is an interesting topic. I only use the opinions of others to get a vague overall impression of something before checking it out myself because the only opinion that matters to me is my own. I say that not in arrogance, but because there are just too many variables sitting behind people’s opinions and preferences.

A lot of time and space is wasted on internet forums generally debating and arguing over things to which there is no absolute answer. A few years ago, my wife showed me a photo of a dress and asked me what colour it was. I said white and gold. She said ‘no way, it is blue and black’! Apparently, the photo had sparked a lot of debate with people falling into two camps as to what colour the dress was. If people can diverge this much on what they are seeing, is it fair to assume that we all hear the same thing?

 

[Walter66]

There is no such thing as a best cartridge, best record player, best of anything.
Like there is no such thing as the best wine, the best steak, the best tomato juice.
With technology, there are good and less good solutions.
I wonder, why there are no more field coil cartridges in the market, this is a potential excellent solution compared to any conventional magnet.
Some people have tried this out and said its superb, better than other solutions. But nobody with a real pro- business is bringing them into the market.

 

[Gregm]

A lot of time and space is wasted on internet forums generally debating and arguing over things to which there is no absolute answer.

Granted but, ultimately, is it a definitive answer that responders seek or argue about?
I think the real (or "human") objective of many discussions is to get together, to connect and interact -- i.e. I believe that primarily we seek human contact (be it virtually) and the forum offers just that.
Of course, we connect by exchanging information and opinion about music & reproduction devices, and that is of great practical value as well.

Accordingly, whether or not we can discuss What Is Best on this forum is perhaps secondary to this site's primary function: to attract and bring together like-minded people: people who love music and who share an interest in very hi-end audio reproduction of that music.

So we discuss what's best in music and share our experiences regarding the devices, and sometimes one or the other comes on string about something. So what: even disagreement is a communication of sorts

 

[Rensselaer]

On a regular base, I invite up to 30 people to my house for a listening workshop over a Weekend. The main theme is driven from my particular component interest in the time of the venue.

Mostly this workshops are supported from Distributors or manufacturer, which often likes to attend.

During the last workshop, wie compared phonostages, up to 30 were available,
from Allnic to Zanden…

the listening sessions are in smaller groups and for me, as the presenter, it is interesting to see, how the component preference differs by group.

Personal Taste and Sonic Education are driving the process of preference, so in the most workshops no component was found, which was the best Winner for all attendees.

In all workshops two major groups will be seen.

- emotional listeners, who want to feel the music
- rational listeners, who want to hear Every Little Detail of the Recording

as some visitors do attend the workshops on a regular base, I can tell them in advance, which component they are going to like.

So it is very difficult to find a component , which is the „best“ for all listeners.

Same here in the Forum.

I am so envious of those who get to come over and listen, but that is besides the point.

You identified two major groups amongst those who come to yours for listening workshops;

-emotional listeners, who want to feel the music
-rational listeners, who want to hear Every Little Detail of the Recording

I think you nailed it. You could easily apply this stratification to most of the various personalities who comment on various subjects on this web site.

I freely admit to belonging to the emotional listeners group. I get exasperated when someone belonging to the rational listeners group asserts that in order to judge a system as sounding "Natural" one must concentrate on a host of specific aspects of the recording and it's reproduction such as (not quoting here, just similes) precision to original musical score, hyper-etched detail such as the sound of the cello player's skirt moving (as heard on such and such recording) , etc., in order to determine if playback sounds truly "Natural"?

I merely sit back, close my eyes, relax and empty my mind and let the reproduction wash over me. If I am NOT drawn to some aspect of that reproduction but instead get the impression (not 100%, but the closer the better) of real musicians playing real instruments before me, then I would call that "Natural Sound".

I also believe that these groups also identify who is into pure analogue and who prefers highly resolving digital.

 

[Walter66]

I also believe that these groups also identify who is into pure analogue and who prefers highly resolving digital.

The joke about this statement is, that the opposite is true. Analog audio offers more data, therefore is more "highly resolving" audio system.
Digital is always a reduced resolution compared to the data that analog machines offer the listener. This is like the best analog photography, digital isn't able to capture all those details. A first class analog system is the real champion when it comes to details and high resolution.

 

[Rensselaer]

View attachment 96935

You've opened a very ... very ... interesting set of questions, Peter -- good for you, great subject -- it may touch some nerves and it will be interesting to read the replies. I'll make the following remarks to stir the pot.

There seem to be several (many?) roadblocks to even try gauging or assert What's Best.

One of those is the strong personal relationship people have with their choices and the difficulty in detaching oneself from those choices to acknowledge what is best.

Two is the issue/problem of context. No single component operates outside a system context. Can a component be best independent of a context? Or can we simply say X is best in any system that enables its potential?

Three associates to the platitude that "we all hear differently" and thus it is impossible that 'what's best' can be determined. I suspect plenty of people are settled with that. I believe we hear more similarily than differently but we have different preferences or place different values or emphasis on what we hear. Can we ignore our own preferences in determining what's best?

Four, is what you touched on talking about reference. "Is it simply that we are unsure, still learning and searching, trying to understand what we like? We have a known reference against which we can judge what is good, better, and the best - what comes closest to the sound of the real thing." As discussion of natural sound has shown us, many people have difficulty accepting "what comes closest to the sound of the real thing" as the basis against which best is assessed.

I don't think that last issue in intractable. I can imagine someone saying "I have a reference sound in my head, I call it Organic Orange. Just like those people who say they know real when they hear it, I know Organic Orange when I hear it." Okay, at least he has a reference even if it is accesible only to him. For folks who do not have an objective reference such as the sound of an orchestra in a concert hall the notion of 'what best achieves that' can be pretty fungible, perhaps depending on what they had for breakfast.

The canard that I need to hear every single X to know which X is best comes from the same minds for whom consistency is a hobgoblin.

Tima has several good points here, the second means the most to me as it explains why I support this forum.

Tima's second point I only figured out after spending entirely too much money on magazines and equipment recommended in those magazines.

All the magazines I subscribed to (won't name names) review equipment with only a brief listing of the review equipment used. I do not recall ever reading a review that said "If you want a truly synergistic system that can give the presence and emotional involvement of systems costing three times as much, try this (particular review piece) with such and such speakers, these cables, and switch the valves to NOS Amperex, etc., " The only thing we got was carefully chosen platitudes that could not be proven wrong, and a statement such as; "a strong contender ____ at this price point".

The WBF, on the other hand, is a non-commercial information source. Sure, there are manufacturers on this site who may possibly present opinions that favour their own products, but not as strongly as one would expect. Others, for the love of the hobby, do careful (and selfless) comparisons and evaluations for the benefit of all, and though they might only be declaring which (of two) turntables is the best, those two usually represent what lies at the pinnacle of it's genre and the answer may help. someone in the market but who can't get one of each to audition in their own system. Others, bonzo for instance, gave great advice for those out there of more modest means when he described a system consisting of a particular amplifier when used with DeVore speakers could provide a very natural and enjoyable sound for far less than what they compete with to do the same.

 

[Rensselaer]

The joke about this statement is, that the opposite is true. Analog audio offers more data, therefore is more "highly resolving" audio system.
Digital is always a reduced resolution compared to the data that analog machines offer the listener. This is like the best analog photography, digital isn't able to capture all those details. A first class analog system is the real champion when it comes to details and high resolution.

The phrase, "World's Best Cartridge“ emphatically states that there is one particular cart that is the absolute best in the entire world. According to Webster’s, the word “best” means, “a person or thing or part of a thing that is better than all the other.” Or, the absolute finest, the greatest, the foremost.

Everyone in the hobby has at least:

(1) different levels of hearing
(2) different learning experiences

We don’t all hear the same. This is a fact. No one on this forum has experienced every single combination of every piece of gear in existence. Since the entire chain matters - (our hearing —> equipment combos, etc.) this is a very subjective hobby. Ones person’s magic may not be another person‘s.

With all these variables - and more (?) - there can be no absolute best.

This said, IMO we may have our absolute favorites, or that which is excellent, or that which the best of what we’ve heard to date, etc.

This is of course my opinion as everything else I’ve written or will ever write on this forum is.

Perhaps instead of arguing whether the title, and opinions of its members, can actually describe what is best or not in absolute terms, I would suggest that you skip past the writing of those who hear differently to you, and only read entries from those who seem to hear things the way you do.

 

[Walter66]

There are Leica fans who prefer black and white pics and those are being shown in galeries. Even b/w digital leica has a gorgeous look, its pure art.
The reference in colour quality is still analog imaging. I know that Leica aims to replicate those analog colours of famous analog still films with every new digital sensor they bring up to life in their cameras. Analog ist still the reference for them, but with all digital sensors there is some loss in those qualities, no digital sensor has the ability to touch on those analog virtues. The same is with digital cinema, what is the majority today. Those projectors simply fail to reproduce film colours of yesterdays reference chemical films. The same quality isn't any longer available to the customer.

My problem with digital audio was (and maybe is) not the quest for more bits in the data stream but the audibility of the whole A/D-D/A electronic conversion process compared to real analog systems without those process. And the tone colors, that can't compete with real analog systems. It just sounds more true, less electronic enhanced and more lifelike to me to hear an analog system.

Btw, I stopped some 30 years ago to believe what others told me about real audio quality, because it prooved to be wrong. Wrong for the simple reason that those people want to sell something or wrong because they had a different taste. I think subjective experiences are strictly personal belongings and not transferable to others, because they have their own taste and subjectivity. I could compose a killer audio system for myself, but for nobody else. I enjoy reading about components but always see it with this subjectivity and limited background, we all share. Those, who think what they have auditioned until now is the best of the world, don't know the rest.

 

[facten]

All the magazines I subscribed to (won't name names) review equipment with only a brief listing of the review equipment used. I do not recall ever reading a review that said "If you want a truly synergistic system that can give the presence and emotional involvement of systems costing three times as much, try this (particular review piece) with such and such speakers, these cables, and switch the valves to NOS Amperex, etc., " The only thing we got was carefully chosen platitudes that could not be proven wrong, and a statement such as; "a strong contender ____ at this price point"

Great point; it would be much more useful than what is provided