I found today on Audiogon a very amusing and, to me, patently incorrect post from an electronics engineer:
I replied:
I replied:
Blind Test Challenge Offered by Engineer on Audiogon
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Unfortunately, the "blind test" will never happen, the ongoing discussions/debates/rants will continue between objectivists vs. subjectivists between those who will never justify/rationalize the expenditure of the kind of money we spend on this forum and from my perch, I have chosen to avoid these kind of confrontational debates.
I go through this with just about every "sane" individual, who could and will never accept what I spend in terms of dollars and time/effort into my system. When they hear it, on those rare occasions that they are actually open to the experience, they are blown away but still think it's crazy.
To most of the "non-believers" much of what we do is indeed "voodoo" and to be honest I can't blame them from thinking so. We are conditioned to accept and believe. We are living in an alternative universe to most of these people.
I go through this with just about every "sane" individual, who could and will never accept what I spend in terms of dollars and time/effort into my system. When they hear it, on those rare occasions that they are actually open to the experience, they are blown away but still think it's crazy.
To most of the "non-believers" much of what we do is indeed "voodoo" and to be honest I can't blame them from thinking so. We are conditioned to accept and believe. We are living in an alternative universe to most of these people.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Unfortunately this type of arrogant and confrontational style prevents people from having civilized debates on most interesting aspects of the high-end, particularly on research of what is behind our preferences.
Ron, what will you do if he takes you up on your offer? As far as I know, your listening room has not been completed, nor has your system been set up yet. I think he was inviting you to a blind test of his system using different power cords and footers.
I interpret the poster's last full paragraph to refer clearly to a $3,000 to $5,000 "system" versus "quality of a system priced much more than that amount." I think my reply was directly responsive to his offer.
By the time the poster and I work out the details and select a panel of judges I think my system will be set up.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
This guy sounds like a poor man's James Randi.
All I can advise, Ron, is don't go near fuses or Mooks LOL.
All I can advise, Ron, is don't go near fuses or Mooks LOL.
Hello Ron
That's his opinion and is undoubtedly based on his experience. Maybe he just can't hear the differences. So in his mind you guys are the nuts. Not everyone listens to music the same way. And just because they don't listen the same way you do is no indication of the enjoyment they may feel while doing so. There are many people out there that are fine with Blue Tooth, computer speakers or Sonus and couldn't care less about soundstage proper speaker placement or all the other things we may make a fuss over.
Rob
Empirical Audio
Industry Expert
I am suspicious of anyone claiming to be an "Electronics Engineer". There is no such thing. It's EE, electrical engineer at every university in the country.
This is the typical guy has had had limited experience and never heard a decent audiophile system. This would be an eye-opener for him I'm certain. Probably will never have the opportunity or make it happen. If he had any money, he would already know a few things. Likely a new graduate or someone working in a field that is less technical than his schooling. Might even be a recording studio guy or sound guy. These guys are notorious for knowing everything already and claiming that all expensive cables are just snake oil. I have tried to reason with them on other forums. Waste of time....
Steve N.
This is the typical guy has had had limited experience and never heard a decent audiophile system. This would be an eye-opener for him I'm certain. Probably will never have the opportunity or make it happen. If he had any money, he would already know a few things. Likely a new graduate or someone working in a field that is less technical than his schooling. Might even be a recording studio guy or sound guy. These guys are notorious for knowing everything already and claiming that all expensive cables are just snake oil. I have tried to reason with them on other forums. Waste of time....
Steve N.
Well done, Marty! (Except I would edit out some of the gratuitous nastiness.)
I’d be happy to post this on Audiogon on your behalf!
I’d be happy to post this on Audiogon on your behalf!
No need to post it Ron. He won't get it anyway. But you are correct. I really didn't mean to be nasty (not my style), but rather sarcastic as the ridicule was intended! I couldn't help myself! I did however, tone it down a bit, sort of.....
Steve,
That's my long experience with them as well. They like to fancy themselves as protectors of consumers from charlatans and fools. They are self appointed knights of the realm of orthodoxy, as I like to say. They see themselves as righteous warriors, but they behave more as thugs, attempting to bully every forum they frequent into succumbing to their objectivist viewpoint exclusively. They are closed-minded and typically arrogant, which, I suspect, is why they cannot accuratly see their own state of mind. They are a tiresome lot who like to band together into forum gangs, running to each others defense, and rapidly parachuting into any discussion thread to quickly extinghish any spark of an open-minded explorative discussion.
It's not just that they claim to not hear differences in equipment, they will declare that neither does anyone else hear them. They say subjectivists hear differences they WANT to hear, without realizing that maybe they don't hear differences they DON'T WANT to hear. Since they don't trust their own ears, I always wonder how they select their system components. Logically, they should only select mass-market (read as: cheap) A/V application gear strictly by specification (which are, typically, uniformly beyond reproach), and by price. Otherwise, they are (surprise) hypocrites.
That's my long experience with them as well. They like to fancy themselves as protectors of consumers from charlatans and fools. They are self appointed knights of the realm of orthodoxy, as I like to say. They see themselves as righteous warriors, but they behave more as thugs, attempting to bully every forum they frequent into succumbing to their objectivist viewpoint exclusively. They are closed-minded and typically arrogant, which, I suspect, is why they cannot accuratly see their own state of mind. They are a tiresome lot who like to band together into forum gangs, running to each others defense, and rapidly parachuting into any discussion thread to quickly extinghish any spark of an open-minded explorative discussion.
It's not just that they claim to not hear differences in equipment, they will declare that neither does anyone else hear them. They say subjectivists hear differences they WANT to hear, without realizing that maybe they don't hear differences they DON'T WANT to hear. Since they don't trust their own ears, I always wonder how they select their system components. Logically, they should only select mass-market (read as: cheap) A/V application gear strictly by specification (which are, typically, uniformly beyond reproach), and by price. Otherwise, they are (surprise) hypocrites.
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There are electronics engineers and electronics engineers. Like those who design high end crystal radios, and those who do better than that.
Perhaps he's not from your country? In UK its a fairly common descriptive term.
I think one of the problems is, is that there are a number of chalatons in high end audio (as with any business), so those outside of high end will tend to focus on those, and paint the entire industry with the same broad brush.
I post regularly on the talkclassical.com music forums, and there is also a "protector of the audio uneducated" over there. He works at a recording studio in LA. He constantly claims, that $5000.00 is the most anyone ever has to spend on speakers, and that anything above that is a waste of money. He also claims, that room treatment will always make up for inadequacies in speakers. He's argued that a mediocre speaker will always sound better in a correctly treated room, than a very high end speaker in a normal living space. And that $5000.00 worth of multi channel speakers will always sound better than substantially more money invested in 2 channel.
Among his other claims are: all CD players/transports are comparable, a consumer level multi channel AV receiver will sound as good as any high end amp, there is no reason for any resolution above 44.1/16 bit.
I post regularly on the talkclassical.com music forums, and there is also a "protector of the audio uneducated" over there. He works at a recording studio in LA. He constantly claims, that $5000.00 is the most anyone ever has to spend on speakers, and that anything above that is a waste of money. He also claims, that room treatment will always make up for inadequacies in speakers. He's argued that a mediocre speaker will always sound better in a correctly treated room, than a very high end speaker in a normal living space. And that $5000.00 worth of multi channel speakers will always sound better than substantially more money invested in 2 channel.
Among his other claims are: all CD players/transports are comparable, a consumer level multi channel AV receiver will sound as good as any high end amp, there is no reason for any resolution above 44.1/16 bit.
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