Blind Test Challenge Offered by Engineer on Audiogon

[Gregadd]

The logical conclusion from "liking distortion" is that we prefer reproduced music over the real thing. It is a given that all reproduced music is distorted. It is distinguishable from the real thing. Even if we lack the ability to describe or measure those distortions.

I have stated before that I often do not point out imperfections for fear some will notice it and not be able to get it out of their mine. In the olden days when a movie was shown in a theatre it had multiple reels of tape their was a marker to alert the projectionist to change reels. I had never noticed it. But once it was pointed out to me I always saw it. While I told people that it existed I never told them what it was. It is mildly distracting.

 

[microstrip]

I once was at a local audio club meeting and the store had their repair technician giving a speech. He basically said we all actually like distortion and gave some compelling cases of it. He also said that he can teach us to hear a particular form of distortion but warned us once heard you can never unhear it regardless of the level of system. Never in my life have I seen or heard 40 to 50 people give a unanimous in perfect rhythm no! Priceless it was!

I had the same reaction concerning the Sean Olive Course on How to Critically Evaluate the Quality of Recorded and Reproduced Sound some years ago. Why should I transform myself in a machine to diagnose distortions, something that would probably spoil my enjoyment in the future? However learning about the achievements and unexpected capabilities of stereo reproduction increases my listening pleasure.

 

[NorthStar]

I once was at a local audio club meeting and the store had their repair technician giving a speech. He basically said we all actually like distortion and gave some compelling cases of it. He also said that he can teach us to hear a particular form of distortion but warned us once heard you can never unhear it regardless of the level of system. Never in my life have I seen or heard 40 to 50 people give a unanimous in perfect rhythm no! Priceless it was!

What type of distortion Mike?
Listening to Cat Stevens @ age sixteen with my brothers and sisters we rode with distortion from his first LPs and were in musical ecstasy...pure love of the music he was playing and that we were listening.
Those moments in time can never be lost. Distortion is part of us, of the music and it sounds beautiful with real emotion. ...Albums spinning on turntables.



Music that is too clean sounds forced, plastic, antiseptic, noise-less, hospital walls, loneliness, depressive, constipated, analgesic, mathematic, scientific, unromantic, flagellation, masochist, sadistic, black cult, Vudu, Netflix, Marvel, comics, au-delà du réel.

 

[NorthStar]

I do understand. I have been at the stage you are at many times over my career in audio. I've heard all of this before, many times. You have achieved a level that you believe is the top or close to it. Every system is at different level of perfection. If there is one thing I have learned over 22 years of having my own audio design company, it's that things can ALWAYS get better.

If you are happy with your system, fine, but don't try to convince us that our systems are not significantly better, because I know they are, based on what you have there. I've modded other manufacturers gear for more than 10 years (including many Sony Transports) and designed my own gear for almost 20 years. You will not be taken seriously making these kinds of claims here.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

The most essential part of a system is . . . the listener. To evaluate his musical "trance" (emotional level) is a task for the next billion years. The system itself means nothing without the listener's inner musical soul.

I've been thinking about it since last Friday. When we audition, we become analytical, searching for "our" and nobody else's sound, distortion included.

 

[Empirical Audio]

The most essential part of a system is . . . the listener. To evaluate his musical "trance" (emotional level) is a task for the next billion years. The system itself means nothing without the listener's inner musical soul.

I'm just shooting like that because I've got nothing else to do, but I certainly believe what I'm writing. :b
I've been thinking about it since last Friday.

Certainly true, but the listener must not only train their ears/brain, they must get over preconceived notions and realize that truly live and resolving systems are possible. Not always attainable, give a budget however. I just bought a silver USB cable that is more expensive than this guys whole system. Made a difference of course, but I am already at the top of the performance curve, so incremental improvements tend to be expensive.

Steve N.

 

[knghifi]

Perhaps he's not from your country? In UK its a fairly common descriptive term.

Well, someone has to finish last?

Normally I would agree with you. But on this particular one, I like the risk/reward.

I wouldn't bother. Trolls over took Agon made the forum useless. Same group of trolls with a Best Buy level system polluting threads with the same arguments.

 

[RogerD]

I do understand. I have been at the stage you are at many times over my career in audio. I've heard all of this before, many times. You have achieved a level that you believe is the top or close to it. Every system is at different level of perfection. If there is one thing I have learned over 22 years of having my own audio design company, it's that things can ALWAYS get better.

If you are happy with your system, fine, but don't try to convince us that our systems are not significantly better, because I know they are, based on what you have there. I've modded other manufacturers gear for more than 10 years (including many Sony Transports) and designed my own gear for almost 20 years. You will not be taken seriously making these kinds of claims here.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Unless you have done the experiments I have done. Your experiences mean nothing...apples and oranges.

 

[NorthStar]

Steve, are you experienced?
I mean do you have what it takes to evaluate audio components under their very best lights and compare them with others and discover new ones and listen to them all in their very best environments and with the best cables and with the music of your own personal preference from the best mastering music recordings...Operas, Classical Chamber, Classical Orchestral, Symphonies, Chorals, Big Band Jazz, Motown, Soul, Blues, and Tango.

Are you experienced, do you have an expertise in what you personally like that you can without any doubt recommend to new young audiophiles entering the scene today?

Are you experienced in the arts of music sound reproduction with infinitive acuity?
Can science teach audiences how to select their music choices for the very best music evolution and peaceful universal development in a mature and civil society @ the service of world peace and happiness?

Are you experienced in the sharing of life and music and better world's organization?
Do you recommend any system that anyone can experience without any financial restriction, and be happy?

Are you experienced, can you accommodate system's comparisons for all classes without any limitation? In your own expertise and personal music audio life experience, how do you make audiophiles and music lovers better listeners of real music that is worth it? How can you give the best audio directions to your children and their children?

Certainly true, but the listener must not only train their ears/brain, they must get over preconceived notions and realize that truly live and resolving systems are possible. Not always attainable, give a budget however. I just bought a silver USB cable that is more expensive than this guys whole system. Made a difference of course, but I am already at the top of the performance curve, so incremental improvements tend to be expensive.

Steve N.

 

[knghifi]

Remember that measurements are supposed to measure what one hears...but the question becomes...what does one hear??

Precisely reason I buy what sounds best to ME. Did I mention I'm using el cheapo Ching cheng PCs on front ends and full loom of Dueland DCA16ga (XLR ICs) / DCA12ga (bare wire SCs) bulk cables.

 

[ddk]

The most essential part of a system is . . . the listener. To evaluate his musical "trance" (emotional level) is a task for the next billion years. The system itself means nothing without the listener's inner musical soul.

I've been thinking about it since last Friday. When we audition, we become analytical, searching for "our" and nobody else's sound, distortion included.

This is true on many levels Bob, over the years I’ve worked with a number of very accomplished musicians who’re also audiophiles and their approach to music is very different from the passive listener. Most of them have their own internal reference and demand a lot more perfection and from the system than the average high-ender specially when evaluating their own recordings and it's not about musicality. Of course you have the other end of the spectrum too where they don’t give a damn about sound quality as long as it’s not offensive and abrasive, but they’re not on WBF .

david

 

[Empirical Audio]

+1

Remember that measurements are supposed to measure what one hears...but the question becomes...what does one hear??
If you cannot hear a particular tone or have experience understanding the variations of that tone, then how is one supposed to quantify a measurement that can correlate to that tone. Inquiring minds and all that!

Now, OTOH, I do happen to think that measurements can be highly instructive....because IF you have a really poor unit with gross distortion...which some people will actually not hear, then a measurement that can point out the faulty design of the piece in question, is IMO a valuable tool. BUT, as you pointed out, measurements are insufficient to properly characterize the gear...and the question then becomes...how could that be changed?? A very complex problem, that I suspect would have no practical answer. Which is probably why you have NOT heard back from JA.....he has no answer either.

I actually proposed some new methods for measuring jitter and never heard back from JA.... I have been able to do some correlation of SQ to the jitter measurements.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Empirical Audio]

The logical conclusion from "liking distortion" is that we prefer reproduced music over the real thing. It is a given that all reproduced music is distorted. It is distinguishable from the real thing.

You need to hear a good recording on my system. Indistinguishable from live, particularly if you are listening through a doorway or in the next room. Great for acoustic guitar etc. When you turn it up and the neighbors think you have a live band in there, you know you have arrived.

Steve N.

 

[Empirical Audio]

What type of distortion Mike?
Listening to Cat Stevens @ age sixteen with my brothers and sisters we rode with distortion from his first LPs and were in musical ecstasy...pure love of the music he was playing and that we were listening.
Those moments in time can never be lost. Distortion is part of us, of the music and it sounds beautiful with real emotion. ...Albums spinning on turntables.

View attachment 43599

Music that is too clean sounds forced, plastic, antiseptic, noise-less, hospital walls, loneliness, depressive, constipated, analgesic, mathematic, scientific, unromantic, flagellation, masochist, sadistic, black cult, Vudu, Netflix, Marvel, comics, au-delà du réel.

I had some of these Cat Stephens LP's and now I have the digital versions. Unfortunately, the recording quality was not that great.

Steve N.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Steve, are you experienced?
I mean do you have what it takes to evaluate audio components under their very best lights and compare them with others and discover new ones and listen to them all in their very best environments and with the best cables and with the music of your own personal preference from the best mastering music recordings...Operas, Classical Chamber, Classical Orchestral, Symphonies, Chorals, Big Band Jazz, Motown, Soul, Blues, and Tango.

Are you experienced, do you have an expertise in what you personally like that you can without any doubt recommend to new young audiophiles entering the scene today?

Are you experienced in the arts of music sound reproduction with infinitive acuity?
Can science teach audiences how to select their music choices for the very best music evolution and peaceful universal development in a mature and civil society @ the service of world peace and happiness?

Are you experienced in the sharing of life and music and better world's organization?
Do you recommend any system that anyone can experience without any financial restriction, and be happy?

Are you experienced, can you accommodate system's comparisons for all classes without any limitation? In your own expertise and personal music audio life experience, how do you make audiophiles and music lovers better listeners of real music that is worth it? How can you give the best audio directions to your children and their children?

Not sure what you are getting at here. I can certainly give solid advice and I do to my customers and others on the forums. I am in constant contact with my customers, so I know what they are trying and how it turned-out. They often do shootouts for me with other components and between cables. I was never a professional musician, but I did have a band in my youth and play some guitar still. I have been doing stereo since 1975 and my company has been around for 22 years. I have gotten many best of shows at trade shows for my rooms. I have gotten golden-ear awards on my DAC as well as Best Bits.

I came up through the ranks just like most audiophiles, reaching various levels of audio nirvana over many years of upgrading my systems. We all learn a lot along the way. We all go down the garden path of distortion occasionally, even me. The advantage I have is that I am a EE with 25 years in the computer industry designing computer hardware and 22 years in the audio industry designing audio hardware, so I have some knowledge that most engineers in the audio biz do not have. I rarely go down the garden path of distortion anymore.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[NorthStar]

Not sure what you are getting at here. I can certainly give solid advice and I do to my customers and others on the forums. I am in constant contact with my customers, so I know what they are trying and how it turned-out. They often do shootouts for me with other components and between cables. I was never a professional musician, but I did have a band in my youth and play some guitar still. I have been doing stereo since 1975 and my company has been around for 22 years. I have gotten many best of shows at trade shows for my rooms. I have gotten golden-ear awards on my DAC as well as Best Bits.

I came up through the ranks just like most audiophiles, reaching various levels of audio nirvana over many years of upgrading my systems. We all learn a lot along the way. We all go down the garden path of distortion occasionally, even me. The advantage I have is that I am a EE with 25 years in the computer industry designing computer hardware and 22 years in the audio industry designing audio hardware, so I have some knowledge that most engineers in the audio biz do not have. I rarely go down the garden path of distortion anymore.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve I wasn't just asking you but all audio dealers @ WBF.
You're a guy I respect his ideas. You're smarter than most, civilised, always polite, never aggressive.

Yes, it was more a universal post asking many questions, to everyone here who deal in this audio business. I added a quote from you in my reply, but my overall questions were for all WBF audio dealers.

 

[NorthStar]

This is true on many levels Bob, over the years I’ve worked with a number of very accomplished musicians who’re also audiophiles and their approach to music is very different from the passive listener. Most of them have their own internal reference and demand a lot more perfection and from the system than the average high-ender specially when evaluating their own recordings and it's not about musicality. Of course you have the other end of the spectrum too where they don’t give a damn about sound quality as long as it’s not offensive and abrasive, but they’re not on WBF .

david

David, you are right too, each customer is unique in his own personal musical journey and approach. Some know exactly what they're looking for, others don't. @ the end it feels great to interact, listen and share.
This a dealer's world, a dreamscape, an escape to music paradise, an exchange of hands giving and receiving.

Blind people don't walk among us, they listen to the music first, with their soul and spirit.
Then they explore the art of sound reproduction, and make their decision on their own turf.
It is a fascinating hobby, like sailing the seven seas.

I hope I don't sound tough because I like smooth music, in vast general. ...Classical, and dancing music too...Calypso. :b

 

[NorthStar]

You need to hear a good recording on my system. Indistinguishable from live, particularly if you are listening through a doorway or in the next room. Great for acoustic guitar etc. When you turn it up and the neighbors think you have a live band in there, you know you have arrived.

Steve N.

That's it, that's what I want short of jamming with friends. ...Hearing friends playing music without having them over. :b

When someone plays the piano @ home the air is filled with notes exploding stars from the sky.
When playing the same recording on hires audio phile (I don't have a turntable recorder), and through three speakers (sometimes two or five or only one; I love experimenting), it sounds nice but I can tell there are few stars missing in the sky.

From another room, the illusion is easier, same as listening to a live music concert from inside a booth or balcony @ a concert hall, forum, stadium, ...the bathroom of a jazz club, blues alley, discotheque.

 

[DaveyF]

You need to hear a good recording on my system. Indistinguishable from live, particularly if you are listening through a doorway or in the next room. Great for acoustic guitar etc. When you turn it up and the neighbors think you have a live band in there, you know you have arrived.

Steve N.

Steve, interesting that you also brought up the old “indistinguishable from Live”...because that is where we will always disagree. Play any live instrument and then a great recording of the same instrument on any system you can mention...and the differences are ALWAYS easy to hear, at least to most listeners.
I have done this kind of an AB for many a’philes, brought my Taylor six string to their Audio room, played it, then we played back a recording of it...or any other guitar piece that you can mention. The Amazing ‘explosion’ of sound into the room from the real instrument ( and explosion is really the only way I can describe it) makes the reproduced sound puny and pathetic in comparison.
Even listening in the hallway, and the real easily trumps eek:. Pun intended) the reproduced. I have done this numerous times, and no one has ever failed the test, is it real or is it Memorex....Lol.

 

[NorthStar]

I'm from Davey's school of experience here.

Yes sometimes with the right volume control it can be spooky, but the illusion is short run.
A loudspeaker simply doesn't "ring" like a musical instrument, live.
...An accordion, harmonica, steel alto flute, classical guitar, acoustic guitar, violin, cello, clarinet, saxophone, piano, piccolo flute, any wood instruments...strings, wind, any steel instruments...trumpet, sax, trombone, any real life acoustic music instrument unamplified. Amplified instruments...electric guitars, synthesizers...need not to apply.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Steve, interesting that you also brought up the old “indistinguishable from Live”...because that is where we will always disagree. Play any live instrument and then a great recording of the same instrument on any system you can mention...and the differences are ALWAYS easy to hear, at least to most listeners.
I have done this kind of an AB for many a’philes, brought my Taylor six string to their Audio room, played it, then we played back a recording of it...or any other guitar piece that you can mention. The Amazing ‘explosion’ of sound into the room from the real instrument ( and explosion is really the only way I can describe it) makes the reproduced sound puny and pathetic in comparison.
Even listening in the hallway, and the real easily trumps eek:. Pun intended) the reproduced. I have done this numerous times, and no one has ever failed the test, is it real or is it Memorex....Lol.

+1