Best XLR connectors money can buy?

[DaveC]

I did the math.

10 feet is the commonly accepted maximum length. You can go longer of course but the ice gets progressively thinner; much depends on the output impedance of the preamp and the input impedance of the amp. This is such a well-known aspect of single-ended cables that its not really up for debate. if you wish to fly in the face of this you do so with considerable headwind.

If a balanced line system is set up right, the cables can go some very long distances- our preamp can drive 100 feet with no problem at all; I've seen microphone signals sent longer than that with no degradation; this was done routinely in the 1950s and since. This fact about balanced line is extremely well known and as you should know is what made long distance phone calls and inter-continental phone calls possible. Clearly the shield is not affecting the signal in the way that it does in single-ended cables! Otherwise the golden age of stereo in the 1950s would never have been possible. Well- that and the introduction of the Westerex 3D cutter heard for LP mastering...

If you find that one XLR cable is sounding different from another, the simple fact is the equipment being used with it does not support the balanced line standard, which has two aspects (how its connected and impedance), both of which are largely ignored in high end audio. Hence audiophiles hear differences. That shouldn't happen, but out of ignorance or the choice to ignore the standard, it does.

IOW your last statement is false. I do not have a belief on the matter. Knowledge is fundamentally different from believing.

We've debated this before, not going into it again, but for the record your info is misleading and just plain wrong.

For those who care, it's really easy to calculate rolloff due to capacitance and you'll find this 10 ft MAX length for RCA cables is pure BS, the thought that a balanced system can magically make the materials and noise generated by cabling a non-issue is wishful thinking, as is always blaming not following some ridiculously simple standard, and finally, your distinction between your knowledge and beliefs is simply delusional.

 

[Kingrex]

I like screw terminals also. I have had much better results with screw on interconnect.
And per Daves comments, the NCF component are really good. Plugs, outlets etc. Expensive.
FWIW. With duplex, If your using the correct box and setting them at the correct depth and green glue the box to the drywall, you can forgo the base plate and carbon top. That base plate is great if the hole is sloppy or the box recessed in the wall.

Back to the exciting cable debate.

 

[Atmasphere]

We've debated this before, not going into it again, but for the record your info is misleading and just plain wrong.

For those who care, it's really easy to calculate rolloff due to capacitance and you'll find this 10 ft MAX length for RCA cables is pure BS, the thought that a balanced system can magically make the materials and noise generated by cabling a non-issue is wishful thinking, as is always blaming not following some ridiculously simple standard, and finally, your distinction between your knowledge and beliefs is simply delusional.

Yes, We've debated this before, but for the record your info is misleading and just plain wrong.

The balanced line cable itself is not what makes it work. That you seem to think that's what I think suggests to me that you don't understand how the balanced line system works and also that you are no good at reading minds either...

In a single-ended cable, the nature of the cable itself plays a big role on how it 'sounds'. This is not the case with balanced line- in a balanced line system its the equipment driving it and the equipment receiving the signal that does the heavy lifting. So quite the other way 'round so to speak.

 

[Solypsa]

I like screw terminals also.

So is the general consensus ( within this thread ) that solder joints are inferior for audio circuits?

 

[Kingrex]

So is the general consensus ( within this thread ) that solder joints are inferior for audio circuits?

Hey, I am a hack when it comes to making audio cable. I made a SPDIF and a 43 foot and 10 foot single ended interconnects. I tried solder and screw. I always had better results with the screw terminals. And. when I want to make a modification, its way easier to deal with screw. I tried to unsolder a connection. I ended up tossing the part.

If I were a pro like Dave of Zenwave, I would accept what he made is the best its going to be. Solder or screw. Dave knows what he is doing.

So does Atmasphere. They seem to have a disagreement on single ended vs balanced performance. But both people are top of the heap when it comes to producing a product that excels.

 

[DaveC]

Yes, We've debated this before, but for the record your info is misleading and just plain wrong.

The balanced line cable itself is not what makes it work. That you seem to think that's what I think suggests to me that you don't understand how the balanced line system works and also that you are no good at reading minds either...

In a single-ended cable, the nature of the cable itself plays a big role on how it 'sounds'. This is not the case with balanced line- in a balanced line system its the equipment driving it and the equipment receiving the signal that does the heavy lifting. So quite the other way 'round so to speak.

Right. I don't know anything, can't understand the concept of balanced, and all these component manufacturers are ignorant and can't follow a very simple standard.

Your spread of misinformation on this subject is self-serving and very disappointing. 10 ft limit on RCA cables, that's just comedy.

 

[Atmasphere]

Right. I don't know anything, can't understand the concept of balanced, and all these component manufacturers are ignorant and can't follow a very simple standard.

Most of the cable guys I run into usually don't like to hear how balanced line eliminates most cable artifacts so your reaction isn't surprising. But don't worry- there is enough ignorance of this topic that they will all be able to find someone to buy their cables.

The 10 foot thing isn't cast in concrete but has been generally understood over the last 50 years as a good rule of thumb. It depends on capacitance per foot, the source impedance and the load impedance. If you are using tube equipment, the source and load impedances can be fairly high and if you are not also using a low capacitance cable, this rule of thumb holds true; IOW if you limit your cables to ten feet you're likely not going to have a problem with them rolling off the highs.

You can see of course that in a balanced line system, where there are very low impedances involved, eliminating equipment interactions is a boon.

The standard is not that hard to follow if you use an output transformer; of course we've been known as the OTL people for a while and patented a way around that. I think the reason so many do not support the standard (AES48) is for three simple reasons: the first being that a pair of good line transformers is expensive and the second being that many think they can outperform a transformer. The third is they just don't know about the standard or for the prior two reasons, choose to ignore it.

I know the ignorance is out there because I run into people that should know better that think a balanced line needs a center tap, don't know the pinout connections for an XLR, don't realize a transformer can be used single-ended or balanced and so on. The most common problem though is balanced outputs that reference ground; simply being two single-ended outputs, one simply out of phase with the other. That leaves you open to ground loops and the construction of the cable becomes far more important. As a result, the debate between which is better is a high end audio thing; IME ridiculous. That debate is simply the result of not supporting the standard.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Oh! Apples and oranges. The shield of single-ended cables is well-known to roll off the highs. This is why 10 feet or so is often considered the length limit.

Why would the shield of a single-ended cable longer than 10 feet carrying signal role off the highs?

 

[Atmasphere]

Why would the shield of a single-ended cable longer than 10 feet carrying signal role off the highs?

The capacitance of the cable increases with length. If you are also using tube equipment, the higher output impedance of the preamp and higher input impedance of the amp creates a lower frequency pole. With most cables, assuming high impedances on both ends, 10 feet is usually not a problem. Now if you know the source impedance and the input impedance, which can be considered to be in parallel, and if you also know the capacitance per foot of the cable you plan to use, you can calculate that -3dB point using this formula:

1/R x C x 2Pi where R is resistance in Ohms, C is Capacitance in Farads. Since Farads is usually not a useful everyday value, I like to substitute 1,000,000 for the value of 1, thus allowing me to use uF (microfarads). This will give an answer in Hz. Even then the cable capacitance will be in picofarads so you have to do a bit of correction. 1000 pf is equal to 0.001uf. So if you have a low capacitance cable it might be about 30pf/foot or thereabouts. If you have certain tube equipment this can result in the -3dB point being an octave or two above 20Kz. Since its a 6dB slope that is being introduced, phase shift will occur to 1/10th the cutoff frequency. So while bandwidth in the audio band is unaffected, phase shift is- the ear uses phase to sort out imaging (its pretty terrible at detecting phase at any given frequency, but over a band of frequencies things are different). With an 80KHz cutoff, the minimum frequency at which phase will be shifted is 8KHz- and so you can expect little to no problem. But if you have a higher capacitance cable, common with less expensive cables, but also to be expected with a longer cable, phase shift will be happening at a lower frequency; likely with audible effects regarding soundstage.

A change in frequency response at 50KHz (if there is not feedback to correct it) is also interpreted by the ear as a tonality due to phase shift. I don't need to go into the anecdote right now, but a rolloff at that frequency will be interpreted as a darkness.

Now if you have solid state equipment, you can run cables considerably longer, especially if they are low capacitance. The cutoff frequency might be well above 200KHz and no worries! But the issue is the unknowns, so the 10 foot value has long been accepted on that basis.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The capacitance of the cable increases with length. If you are also using tube equipment, the higher output impedance of the preamp and higher input impedance of the amp creates a lower frequency pole. With most cables, assuming high impedances on both ends, 10 feet is usually not a problem. Now if you know the source impedance and the input impedance, which can be considered to be in parallel, and if you also know the capacitance per foot of the cable you plan to use, you can calculate that -3dB point using this formula:

1/R x C x 2Pi where R is resistance in Ohms, C is Capacitance in Farads. Since Farads is usually not a useful everyday value, I like to substitute 1,000,000 for the value of 1, thus allowing me to use uF (microfarads). This will give an answer in Hz. Even then the cable capacitance will be in picofarads so you have to do a bit of correction. 1000 pf is equal to 0.001uf. So if you have a low capacitance cable it might be about 30pf/foot or thereabouts. If you have certain tube equipment this can result in the -3dB point being an octave or two above 20Kz. Since its a 6dB slope that is being introduced, phase shift will occur to 1/10th the cutoff frequency. So while bandwidth in the audio band is unaffected, phase shift is- the ear uses phase to sort out imaging (its pretty terrible at detecting phase at any given frequency, but over a band of frequencies things are different). With an 80KHz cutoff, the minimum frequency at which phase will be shifted is 8KHz- and so you can expect little to no problem. But if you have a higher capacitance cable, common with less expensive cables, but also to be expected with a longer cable, phase shift will be happening at a lower frequency; likely with audible effects regarding soundstage.
Now if you have solid state equipment, you can run cables considerably longer, especially if they are low capacitance. The cutoff frequency might be well above 200KHz and no worries! But the issue is the unknowns, so the 10 foot value has long been accepted on that basis.

Thank you, Ralph. I understand all of this.

The only thing I did not understand is why, in your prior post, you were attributing all of this only to the shield.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you, Ralph. I understand all of this.

The only thing I did not understand is why, in your prior post, you were attributing all of this only to the shield.

The shield is what creates the capacitance.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The shield is what creates the capacitance.

Thank you.

 

[DaveC]

The shield is what creates the capacitance.

Nope, it contributes to it, but this is yet another misguided and incomplete explanation showing obvious bias.

The truth is, the cable it's self also has capacitance and this is a trade-off with noise rejection. For example a star quad has more capacitance vs a twisted pair, but also far superior noise rejection.

A shield's capacitance depends on how close it is to the conductors, with a good design this is minimized by spacing the shield further away.

The 10ft max for RCA cables is BS, and was never an accepted rule of thumb, this is made-up fantasy-land stuff. It is total BS because it assumes the worst case scenario of a VERY POORLY designed tube preamp, which would have the same output impedance as the plate resistance. But this is POOR DESIGN and isn't relevant whatsoever to high end audio. It might be relevant to the DIY'er just starting out and using a single triode for both amplification and output. Again, garbage design. It also assumes a poorly thought out amp input stage with excessive miller capacitance and high input impedance. Why would you design such an amp?

Then the fact is, throw all that 10 ft BS out with properly designed gear, especially if it's solid state. SS gear can usually drive long RCA cables with no problems whatsoever. TONS of high-end amplifier designers and manufacturers, including Lamm if I'm not mistaken, would absolutely agree with this.

Look, the truth is XLR cables matter, silver and copper sound different. Different cable designs produce more or less self-noise due to material choice alone, this is called triboelectric noise. The dielectric is the one major variable in propagation speed of the signal. There's a ton of reasons cables sound different that have NOTHING to do with single ended vs balanced cables and associated components. The 10 ft RTCA rule is similarly wishful thinking on the part of someone who is biased towards balanced gear. The truth is balanced gear is solving a problem that in most cases simply doesn't exist in home audio. You have double the parts count, double the amplification devices, these parts must all be closely matched not to introduce more distortion. It cancels out even order but not odd order distortion. Balanced audio for home use is overly complicated, overly expensive and comparing apples to apples sounds more mechanical and less musical. It is less psychoacoustically correct vs single ended. This is why a really good SET amp paired with the right speakers sounds so good, and a PP amp or OTL simply can't match it.

 

[Solypsa]

You have double the parts count, double the amplification devices, these parts must all be closely matched not to introduce more distortion.

Not saying this isn't true sometimes, but if passive devices are used at output and input (transformers) then not necessarily, right? I guess in this case it's not double the parts but adding two that might not be there at all otherwise...

In 'balanced' discussions sometimes aes48 line connection is conflated with 'balanced / symmetrical circuits' as well as xlr vs rca which are all three a topic of their own. The language can get confusing.

Or am I not getting it?

 

[Atmasphere]

Nope, it contributes to it, but this is yet another misguided and incomplete explanation showing obvious bias.

The truth is, the cable it's self also has capacitance and this is a trade-off with noise rejection. For example a star quad has more capacitance vs a twisted pair, but also far superior noise rejection.

A shield's capacitance depends on how close it is to the conductors, with a good design this is minimized by spacing the shield further away.

The 10ft max for RCA cables is BS, and was never an accepted rule of thumb, this is made-up fantasy-land stuff. It is total BS because it assumes the worst case scenario of a VERY POORLY designed tube preamp, which would have the same output impedance as the plate resistance. But this is POOR DESIGN and isn't relevant whatsoever to high end audio. It might be relevant to the DIY'er just starting out and using a single triode for both amplification and output. Again, garbage design. It also assumes a poorly thought out amp input stage with excessive miller capacitance and high input impedance. Why would you design such an amp?

Then the fact is, throw all that 10 ft BS out with properly designed gear, especially if it's solid state. SS gear can usually drive long RCA cables with no problems whatsoever. TONS of high-end amplifier designers and manufacturers, including Lamm if I'm not mistaken, would absolutely agree with this.

Look, the truth is XLR cables matter, silver and copper sound different. Different cable designs produce more or less self-noise due to material choice alone, this is called triboelectric noise. The dielectric is the one major variable in propagation speed of the signal. There's a ton of reasons cables sound different that have NOTHING to do with single ended vs balanced cables and associated components. The 10 ft RTCA rule is similarly wishful thinking on the part of someone who is biased towards balanced gear. The truth is balanced gear is solving a problem that in most cases simply doesn't exist in home audio. You have double the parts count, double the amplification devices, these parts must all be closely matched not to introduce more distortion. It cancels out even order but not odd order distortion. Balanced audio for home use is overly complicated, overly expensive and comparing apples to apples sounds more mechanical and less musical. It is less psychoacoustically correct vs single ended. This is why a really good SET amp paired with the right speakers sounds so good, and a PP amp or OTL simply can't match it.

Sheesh.

The first statement is contradicted by that of the second and 3rd paragraphs (the latter of which consists of one sentence). For those that understand debate, usually when someone is willing to contradict themself in this fashion, its in order to make someone else wrong rather than further the conversation about the topic. To restore integrity at the very least the contradictions have to be eliminated. In lawyer terms its sort of a 'were you lying then or are you lying now?' thing; never a good position to be in.

This statement (and a good portion of what followed it):

The truth is balanced gear is solving a problem that in most cases simply doesn't exist in home audio. You have double the parts count, double the amplification devices, these parts must all be closely matched not to introduce more distortion. It cancels out even order but not odd order distortion

is false: 1st, the idea that a balanced circuit (which, FWIW is a red herring insofar as the topic of this thread is concerned) must have double the parts is a common myth as anyone who designs balanced circuits should know. If you use a differential amplifier for that balanced circuit, and count the parts, you have less than double the parts. It is helpful to match some of them, but as anyone who has done precision single-ended circuits knows, its helpful to have circuit values bang on regardless if you really want good results. The real trick to getting differential circuits to work well is the constant current source. Regarding distortion cancellation, yes, even orders are cancelled, but because distortion is compounded less from stage to stage, the odd orders remaining fall off at a faster rate (due to the cubic nature of even ordered harmonic cancellation) as the order of the harmonic is increased, thus allowing in the 3rd harmonic (which is innocuous to the human ear) to mask them (assuming open loop design, IOW no feedback). This is a good thing.

The problem that balanced line equipment solves of course, is that of the interconnect (whether or not the internal circuit of the equipment is also balanced). If you have ever auditioned two single-ended cables side by side and found one sounded superior, you know what I'm talking about. What you can safely conclude from that sort of audition is both cables are wrong. This is because the manufacturer of the better cable will have a new version of it next year and if he doesn't, someone else will. Balanced line operation gets you off of that white elephant merry go round and the benefit is there even if the cable is only 6 inches.

Of course we all know the cost of a good quality interconnect these days... its the hidden cost of single ended equipment and the hidden variable as to whether the equipment can be set up successfully. There's nothing magic about it, it is simply what I said here on this thread 2 years ago

SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well. The reason they have a following is entirely due to how they make distortion. I know a lot of people will have trouble with that, but its the simple truth- to understand that, its helpful also to know how the distortion that SETs make interacts with the human ear.

I've gone into this in great depth elsewhere on this site so won't repeat myself here. Single ended equipment is really off topic on a thread devoted to XLR connectors...

 

[DaveC]

Sheesh.

The first statement is contradicted by that of the second and 3rd paragraphs (the latter of which consists of one sentence). For those that understand debate, usually when someone is willing to contradict themself in this fashion, its in order to make someone else wrong rather than further the conversation about the topic. To restore integrity at the very least the contradictions have to be eliminated. In lawyer terms its sort of a 'were you lying then or are you lying now?' thing; never a good position to be in.

This statement (and a good portion of what followed it):


is false: 1st, the idea that a balanced circuit (which, FWIW is a red herring insofar as the topic of this thread is concerned) must have double the parts is a common myth as anyone who designs balanced circuits should know. If you use a differential amplifier for that balanced circuit, and count the parts, you have less than double the parts. It is helpful to match some of them, but as anyone who has done precision single-ended circuits knows, its helpful to have circuit values bang on regardless if you really want good results. The real trick to getting differential circuits to work well is the constant current source. Regarding distortion cancellation, yes, even orders are cancelled, but because distortion is compounded less from stage to stage, the odd orders remaining fall off at a faster rate (due to the cubic nature of even ordered harmonic cancellation) as the order of the harmonic is increased, thus allowing in the 3rd harmonic (which is innocuous to the human ear) to mask them (assuming open loop design, IOW no feedback). This is a good thing.

The problem that balanced line equipment solves of course, is that of the interconnect (whether or not the internal circuit of the equipment is also balanced). If you have ever auditioned two single-ended cables side by side and found one sounded superior, you know what I'm talking about. What you can safely conclude from that sort of audition is both cables are wrong. This is because the manufacturer of the better cable will have a new version of it next year and if he doesn't, someone else will. Balanced line operation gets you off of that white elephant merry go round and the benefit is there even if the cable is only 6 inches.

Of course we all know the cost of a good quality interconnect these days... its the hidden cost of single ended equipment and the hidden variable as to whether the equipment can be set up successfully. There's nothing magic about it, it is simply what I said here on this thread 2 years ago

SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well. The reason they have a following is entirely due to how they make distortion. I know a lot of people will have trouble with that, but its the simple truth- to understand that, its helpful also to know how the distortion that SETs make interacts with the human ear.

I've gone into this in great depth elsewhere on this site so won't repeat myself here. Single ended equipment is really off topic on a thread devoted to XLR connectors...

Just like everything else, your bias is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

Sorry for the run on sentences and other grammatical issues, I just don't have the time to go into great depth correcting your misguided views on all this.

Anyone with common sense can see what you're saying is biased, misguided BS, and they can hear it too.

SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well.

Not by any of your amps.

 

[whistleraudio]

What was the conclusion regarding the best XLR connectors money can buy?

 

[DaveC]

What was the conclusion regarding the best XLR connectors money can buy?

Apparently they all sound the same.

 

[microstrip]

What was the conclusion regarding the best XLR connectors money can buy?

IMO the only conclusion is that, as most of the time in the high-end, there is not such thing as "the best". We must read the whole thread to known about people opinions and the number of opinions is not enough to allow a summary based on statistics.

For example, I think that the sound differences between cables is far larger than the difference between connectors and care little about them - I use the connectors sellected by manufacturers or the Neutrik's gold plated for ease of availability and price when I have to choose, although sometimes I have got the silver plated XLR's.

 

[DaveC]

For example, I think that the sound differences between cables is far larger than the difference between connectors and care little about them

Sounds like your components are improperly designed. Sorry!