Atma-Sphere Class D Mono blocks

Hardly anyone quotes in full. I should have put usual text omitted}. I did not think it was necessary since my post immediately followed yours. I am happy to edit my post.

My substantive point is I love audio equipment too. without music it would be merely expensive "boat anchors." IMO YMMV

My secondary point is just on the quoting method - it was impossible to distinguish your text from mine in your post, and is not relevant to the point I was making .

Some audiophiles love their equipment and are not music enthusiasts in the usual sense we use in WBF - they listen to music and enjoy it, but IMHO can't be considered "music lovers" in the deep sense we usually refer in WBF - people who look for music, want to understand music and sitting and listening in exclusivity to music. Any way, Keith Yates words on the subject are much better (and enjoyable, BTW) than mine. Are audiophiles music lovers?

Quoting from it:
"But for me there’s something else–another resonance, lingering, more unsettling, closer to home. In the end I confused hardware aficionados and real music lovers. Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don’t “do” concerts. It’s part of the religion, but not part of the life. (...) "
 
My secondary point is just on the quoting method - it was impossible to distinguish your text from mine in your post, and is not relevant to the point I was making .

Some audiophiles love their equipment and are not music enthusiasts in the usual sense we use in WBF - they listen to music and enjoy it, but IMHO can't be considered "music lovers" in the deep sense we usually refer in WBF - people who look for music, want to understand music and sitting and listening in exclusivity to music. Any way, Keith Yates words on the subject are much better (and enjoyable, BTW) than mine. Are audiophiles music lovers?

Quoting from it:
"But for me there’s something else–another resonance, lingering, more unsettling, closer to home. In the end I confused hardware aficionados and real music lovers. Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don’t “do” concerts. It’s part of the religion, but not part of the life. (...) "
In my profession there are very Strick rules for quotation. I am pretty sure I highlighted your quote in Bold Type. There are many informal ways to designate quotations. I think it was effective because you knew it was your words or you would not have responded. You have not complained it was inaccurate and I repaired it.
Returning to the substance of this post.
Thank you for elaborating on your post.
Perhaps you can recall the story of Snow White. At some point she rained as the "fairest of them all." One would assume she would be about the task of doing the things beautiful women do with beauty, instead she became obsessed with her rank as the fairest of then all to the point of killing her rival. Quite perverted don't you think?
You can pursue audio for whatever reason you prefer. My nephew recently gave me a vintage Gary Fisher Mountain bike. When I asked why, they replied because I know you will ride it.
 
In my profession there are very Strick rules for quotation. I am pretty sure I highlighted your quote in Bold Type. There are many informal ways to designate quotations. I think it was effective because you knew it was your words or you would not have responded. You have not complained it was inaccurate and I repaired it.

In WBF we usually quote people using the reply mode that inserts the author first and the forum software surrounds the whole quote with a rectangle in usual style color, independently of own profession. I will stay with the common people.

Returning to the substance of this post.
Thank you for elaborating on your post.
Perhaps you can recall the story of Snow White. At some point she rained as the "fairest of them all." One would assume she would be about the task of doing the things beautiful women do with beauty, instead she became obsessed with her rank as the fairest of then all to the point of killing her rival. Quite perverted don't you think?
You can pursue audio for whatever reason you prefer. My nephew recently gave me a vintage Gary Fisher Mountain bike. When I asked why, they replied because I know you will ride it.

Yes, we can pursue audio for whatever reason we prefer, I was not considering our personal cases, just the whole group of audiophiles. But I never heard about any audiophile killing his rivals in the hobby, but my professional life is away from courts ... ;)
 
I was one of those that decided to stay with tubes (Wavac monos) as for me Atmasphere Class D was too lean sounding...
In this thread alone, opinions are quite split among those that had a chance to try Ralph's class D monos.
If indeed burn-in makes such a significant difference, I find it strange that units are shipped without factory burn-in...

Can we ask what are your speakers? Although technical aspects do not tell the whole story they can explain a lot about the interaction between between amplifier and speaker.
 
Unlike Ron I am not prejudiced. I do have a smidge of class D exposure. I do however have some tube bias (pun intended). I have been on record as not liking class D.
I have warmed up significantly to the Merrill amps. I think they hold a lot of promise. I do not see them as Ralp does (tube killers).
I've not said the Merrill was one thing or the other, just for the record. I've been known to have the same opinion as you as stated in the first sentence above.
Certainly, those who rely heavily on measurements would not suggest you can't have an opinion, if you have not heard the amp. That is the substance of their argument. That is if you don't hear what measurements predict, it is you who are flawed versus the limitations of their measurements.
IMO they are making exactly the same mistake of which they accuse the 'subjective' camp. Sooner ot later they will listen to whatever they bought on spec sheet alone in their own home- do they like it and is that due to confirmation bias?I was one of those that decided to stay with tubes (Wavac monos) as for me Atmasphere Class D was too lean sounding...
In this thread alone, opinions are quite split among those that had a chance to try Ralph's class D monos.
If indeed burn-in makes such a significant difference, I find it strange that units are shipped without factory burn-in...

In your case I don't think that was the only variable. If you are running an SET that employs no feedback, its pretty good bet you have a bit of extra bass going on which would impart a sense of 'warmth'. Our tube amps run no feedback so I've had to deal with this a lot; see http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html which explains the difference between the Power Paradigm (SETs for example) and the Voltage Paradigm (such as our class D). You always got a tonal anomaly if you mix the two technologies.
Not sure why class D amps are compared to tube amps. Wouldn't comparing them to similarly specced SS amps be far more sensible? Tubes do certain things better than non-switching solid state and vice versa, there simply cannot be a universal winner.
The reason is a class D amp can have the same distortion profile as a tube amp and so sound just like one too.
 
In WBF we usually quote people using the reply mode that inserts the author first and the forum software surrounds the whole quote with a rectangle in usual style color, independently of own profession. I will stay with the common people.



Yes, we can pursue audio for whatever reason we prefer, I was not considering our personal cases, just the whole group of audiophiles. But I never heard about any audiophile killing his rivals in the hobby, but my professional life is away from courts ... ;)
I will quote you as you desire. Most of your answers are complete for me and require no comment.
No none has been killed yet. ;)? There has been some pretty serious flame wars leading to people being banned. Obseesion is not at all uncommon.
 
I've not said the Merrill was one thing or the other, just for the record. I've been known to have the same opinion as you as stated in the first sentence above.

IMO they are making exactly the same mistake of which they accuse the 'subjective' camp. Sooner ot later they will listen to whatever they bought on spec sheet alone in their own home- do they like it and is that due to confirmation bias?I was one of those that decided to stay with tubes (Wavac monos) as for me Atmasphere Class D was too lean sounding...


In your case I don't think that was the only variable. If you are running an SET that employs no feedback, its pretty good bet you have a bit of extra bass going on which would impart a sense of 'warmth'. Our tube amps run no feedback so I've had to deal with this a lot; see http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html which explains the difference between the Power Paradigm (SETs for example) and the Voltage Paradigm (such as our class D). You always got a tonal anomaly if you mix the two technologies.

The reason is a class D amp can have the same distortion profile as a tube amp and so sound just like one too.
Maybe the same distortion profile as a push/pull tube amp (although I doubt that too) but definitely not the same profile as a SET. Stop trying to fool people Ralph!
 
Maybe the same distortion profile as a push/pull tube amp (although I doubt that too) but definitely not the same profile as a SET. Stop trying to fool people Ralph!
I object to the idea I'm trying to fool anyone. You don't stay in business nearly 50 years by fooling people.

I have pointed this out to you before but apparently it needs repeating: PP tube amps can have really different distortion profiles! The variables include feedback (always never enough, FWIW), parts quality, power supply design and of course (and not least) topology.

For example, a PP amp employing a single-ended input will exhibit a prominent 5th harmonic that a fully differential and balanced PP amp will not. I have explained this to you before (also if you don't believe me I refer you to the writings of Norman Crowhurst) and yet you persist with this worn trope. At what point do we start to see it as trolling??

I've also mentioned the math behind this: SETs have a quadratic nonlinearity which is why they have a prominent 2nd harmonic, while a fully differential PP amplifier has a cubic nonlinearity which favors the 3rd harmonic (similar to reel to reel tape). And that an PP amp that combines both will have that prominent 5th that Norman Crowhurst wrote of.

So are you trolling, willfully ignorant or having memory problems?
 
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A friendly request:

There is no need to accuse a long-standing member of the industry with solid reputation of fooling anyone in order to express a difference of opinion.

It is commensurately also unnecessary to accuse someone of trolling, being ignorant or having memory issues to express
a difference of opinion.

Let's return to healthy debate without the barbs please.
 
Can we ask what are your speakers? Although technical aspects do not tell the whole story they can explain a lot about the interaction between between amplifier and speaker.
I use Usher Be-10. Had also a chance to listen with Revel F208. Atmasphere class D is not the only class D amps I had a chance to listen to. While Atmasphere is good, I came across others that I prefer more. Still proper DHT SET is by far my best personal choice. No matter the choice of speakers.
 
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I object to the idea I'm trying to fool anyone. You don't stay in business nearly 50 years by fooling people.

I have pointed this out to you before but apparently it needs repeating: PP tube amps can have really different distortion profiles! The variables include feedback (always never enough, FWIW), parts quality, power supply design and of course (and not least) topology.

For example, a PP amp employing a single-ended input will exhibit a prominent 5th harmonic that a fully differential and balanced PP amp will not. I have explained this to you before (also if you don't believe me I refer you to the writings of Norman Crowhurst) and yet you persist with this worn trope. At what point do we start to see it as trolling??

I've also mentioned the math behind this: SETs have a quadratic nonlinearity which is why they have a prominent 2nd harmonic, while a fully differential PP amplifier has a cubic nonlinearity which favors the 3rd harmonic (similar to reel to reel tape). And that an PP amp that combines both will have that prominent 5th that Norman Crowhurst wrote of.

So are you trolling, willfully ignorant or having memory problems?
IMO, you claiming that a Class D amp measures (and sounds) like a tube amp is pretty close to trolling. You may have noticed that I don’t give a crap about 90% of tube amps and 99% of other tech.

Also, if tube amps can measure so differently, and I agree with you that especially push/pull with feedback can (there are some without feedback though that sound much better in general) then which ones, exactly do your Class D amps sound like?? An OTL? Which type, circlotron? Totem pole? A triode amp? A pentode amp? According to at least one user they don’t sound like a high end SET, nor are an adequate replacement.
 
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I use Usher Be-10. Had also a chance to listen with Revel F208. Atmasphere class D is not the only class D amps I had a chance to listen to. While Atmasphere is good, I came across others that I prefer more. Still proper DHT SET is by far my best personal choice. No matter the choice of speakers.

Thanks for the information. I have no direct experience with your speakers, but the few times I listened to Usher speakers they sounded to be on the bright side to my taste and analysis of the few existing Usher impedance measurements show a large variance of impedance of versus frequency, with high peaks around 1.5kHz, something that will affect the frequency response of the system when used with SETs or OTLs. So, IMHO opinions on the Atmasphere class D based on your speakers can be mainly dominated by the frequency response of the particular system - and surely on your preference. In fact, although I have listened to class D amplifiers I enjoyed, I never found them to be a good match for beryllium tweeters, although I have not listened to all of them or the more recent ones, as used by Magico. As always, just MHO and YMMV.

Also, my preference of amplifier type depends strongly on the choice of speakers - we have different views on this fundamental aspect.
 
{Text Omitted]

The reason is a class D amp can have the same distortion profile as a tube amp and so sound just like one too.
Is that the same thing as Bob Carvers transfer function. Besides that, would make it a lateral move. To make a change would not it have to be better.
Furthermore, are you suggesting you intentionally distort your class D amp so that in sounds a tube amp?
 
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Is that the same thing as Bob Carvers transfer function. Besides that, would make it a lateral move. To make a change would not it have to be better.
Furthermore, are you suggesting you intentionally distort your class D amp so that in sounds a tube amp?
I would like to submit that a lateral move from a tube amp to a Class D (whether Atmas or other) is a valid option. I just retubed my Manley’s earlier this year. It cost me $4000 to get the tubes I wanted. For $1400 more I could have gotten the Atmasphere’s. If the sound were similar, I now have an amp that won’t need a future retube, should have fewer maintenance issues, runs cooler and uses less electricity. I’m not saying these are issues for me, but they could be for someone else.
 
I would like to submit that a lateral move from a tube amp to a Class D (whether Atmas or other) is a valid option. I just retubed my Manley’s earlier this year. It cost me $4000 to get the tubes I wanted. For $1400 more I could have gotten the Atmasphere’s. If the sound were similar, I now have an amp that won’t need a future retube, should have fewer maintenance issues, runs cooler and uses less electricity. I’m not saying these are issues for me, but they could be for someone else.
I am not trying o disqualify Class D. One cloud say the same for many transistor amps. Class A, B. or A/B. Obviously i am of the opinion Class D is not the equal of tubes.
 
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IMO, you claiming that a Class D amp measures (and sounds) like a tube amp is pretty close to trolling. You may have noticed that I don’t give a crap about 90% of tube amps and 99% of other tech.

Also, if tube amps can measure so differently, and I agree with you that especially push/pull with feedback can (there are some without feedback though that sound much better in general) then which ones, exactly do your Class D amps sound like?? An OTL? Which type, circlotron? Totem pole? A triode amp? A pentode amp? According to at least one user they don’t sound like a high end SET, nor are an adequate replacement.
I've stated a good number of times (I think even on this thread) that the class D sounds a lot like our OTLs (if casual listening at work I have to look to see which is hooked up). While it has the same liquidity and smoothness in the mids and highs, in all of our listening tests and confirmed by customer feedback, the big tell that its the class D is that nice midrange is accompanied by greater transparency. The bass is different simply because the amp behaves as a proper voltage source so deals with the high impedance peak in the bass that is common with 99% of speakers made differently. Because our OTLs have a high output impedance on account of no feedback (similar to SETs using no feedback), on speakers that work with SETs the class D will sound likely sound a bit leaner by comparison. This is the case on my CARs, but they have level controls on the back (which is common with many speakers from the Power Paradigm era, like vintage EVs, JBLs or Altecs) so I was able to correct the midrange and tweeter levels so as to restore the proper tonality.

Because of the voltage source aspect, I did not expect the class D to work so well with ESLs, but we now have reliable reports that it works fine with old Quads and also with Sound Labs. The Quad owner felt that we were displacing the M-60 as being one of the better amps for use on that speaker, but that was the point in general, although we didn't expect that particular result I'll take it.
In fact, although I have listened to class D amplifiers I enjoyed, I never found them to be a good match for beryllium tweeters
FWIW, my speakers at home employ beryllium diaphragms in the mids and highs (Classic Audio Loudspeakers T-3). I like the pure beryllium because the first breakup in the speaker is at about 35KHz, so they are very smooth and detailed.
Is that the same thing as Bob Carvers transfer function. Besides that, would make it a lateral move. To make a change would not it have to be better.
Furthermore, are you suggesting you intentionally distort your class D amp so that in sounds a tube amp?
Bob would have gained more traction at the time if he had simply pointed out that the distortion spectra of any amplifier is also its 'sonic signature'; the main difference we hear between amps (the minor difference being FR).

We are actually trying to get the distortion down as much as we can since its always barrier to transparency/detail. So zero intentional distortion. As I've said before (I can't speak for other designs), it worked out that the non-linearities in the amp (the encoding scheme and the deadtime in the output section; the latter of which dominates the distortion generation) tend to generate lower ordered harmonics rather than higher ordered. So it has a prominent 2nd and 3rd harmonic, its distortion spectra being somewhere between that of an SET and our OTLs in that regard (IOW, the 2nd is dominant but not as much as seen in an SET, whereas in our OTLs the 3rd dominates), but considerably lower overall; about 1/100th that of an SET and about 1/10th that of our OTLs.

Since the amp drives a much wider range of speakers than our OTLs and also since it sounds better on 99% of speakers made (and is more transparent on all of them), I don't see it as a lateral move at all. Any time you can get greater detail without sacrificing a smooth presentation its a step forward.
 
Just ordered a pair from USA Tube Audio, Scottsdale, AZ.. In a month or so, after maybe 300-or-so hours of burn-in, and in spite of NOT being a quick-to-hear-differences GEA, I'll be able to characterize their sounds compared with my much-loved and -improved Atma-Sphere MA-1s and also my 60Watt Allnic A-6000 PSETs.
2022Dec20_DSF0077_System_1500w.jpg
 
Just ordered a pair from USA Tube Audio, Scottsdale, AZ.. In a month or so, after maybe 300-or-so hours of burn-in, and in spite of NOT being a quick-to-hear-differences GEA, I'll be able to characterize their sounds compared with my much-loved and -improved Atma-Sphere MA-1s and also my 60Watt Allnic A-6000 PSETs.
View attachment 102099
Jeffrey,

What are your speakers?
 
I am not sure Ralph fully appreciates the ramifications of his claims. I have to admire his candor.
I will say this, the many times I have heard his amps withe the Classic speakers they do bear little resemblance to the steroypical tube sound. That may lend some credence to his claim. I am jjjust guessing.
 
Jeffrey,

What are your speakers?
Those are HHR Exotic TLS-2s, a FULL-range, single-driver system based on the 18" Walsh driver.. See

They're rated at only 86dB sensitivuty, but in my largish room and with my ears, they sound quite good even with 30-Watt SETs, and my 60-Watt Allnic A-6000s sound fabulous with them.

BTW the veneer on mine is Bubinga.
 

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