Are there any "giant-killer" speakers?

[LL21]

...
Of course, I could put this thread another way and simply ask how can I get SOTA performance for peanuts??

Bit of a different angle, but in my experience any very good speaker that depreciates dramtically and can be found for 30% of MSRP on the used market can be a giant killer. I once owned Revel Studio (the original) for $4K, and it could easily compete with five figure "giants".

Agree with Edorr. Every audiophile's definition of SOTA may be slightly different for speakers, but 2nd hand is a great way to get there given the fast depreciation of electronics.

For me, i am a big fan of the big Wilson Xs...the X1s can be bought for less than a pair of new Sophia's if you look carefully...even including an upgrade of the Tweeter to the equivalent of the Maxx3-generation Focal and a pair of TA Ref MM2 jumpers.

 

[Barry2013]

Bit of a different angle, but in my experience any very good speaker that depreciates dramtically and can be found for 30% of MSRP on the used market can be a giant killer. I once owned Revel Studio (the original) for $4K, and it could easily compete with five figure "giants".

My experience too.
My Carmel 1s were an ex demo pair I imported from Zagreb at well below half new price all in.
My current Kipod Signature passives which are as rare as hens teeth were second hand from Kansas. In great condition and a big saving on new price. A bit stressful but delighted to have such a great and rare speaker that I wouldn't have been able to contemplate buying new. Active versions are quite readily available at less than half price if your system will accommodate the active woofers.

 

[steve williams]

Hi guys

Interesting thread but as always we follow our TOS and the personal attacks have been removed. You guys know better than that.

Enjoy the rest of the day

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Steve

You have quite a nice set-up. How about we flip this around and ask the guys who own the "Giants" what lower priced systems they have heard that they would recommend based on living with there speakers for a while. I have JBL Synthesis 1400 Arrays with Be drivers as my reference system. I love them but can't afford Everest's as an example. So what speaker systems have you heard and liked??

Rob

 

[BlueFox]

I would guess there are no giant killers. Rather, at every price point there is/are speakers that perform best. While, by definition, the best at any price point will out perform the best at a lower price, it will not be as good as the best at a higher price point.

From personal experience my PSB Synchrony One at $5k a pair out performed my Polk Audio SDA-2 speakers. My Aerial Acoustic 7T at $10k out perform the PSBs, and my Magico S5s at $32k way out perform the Aerial Acoustics. At the sound of the first note from the S5s I immediately said, "This is better, much better."

 

[ALF]

Well, I spent time with David's Bionar giants this week,

they were killer...Cheers!

 

[stehno]

Of course, I could put this thread another way and simply ask how can I get SOTA performance for peanuts??

Interesting that thus far not a single poster responded to the OP's question listed above which according to the OP seems to be his bottom-line question that he and perhaps others desire a response to.

I kinda' figured with all the focus on audio-science and its advancements, shouldn't it be rather straightforward for perhaps any audio-science-minded type to answer what seems to be a rather simple question? What if the "for peanuts" part was redacted from the question?

 

[microstrip]

Because I wrote that one. However, I did not write the Zu review and I mistakenly thought you were referring to that one. I amended that post but my point about knowing your reviewers remains. Reviews are opinion, not fact.

I fully agree with you. It is why it isimportant to have a good and regular knowledge of a reviewer work and poetry. Then, the opinions referred in the review take some meaning and can be of great value.

 

[Diapason]

This has been an interesting read. I find the love for panels (and Maggies specifically) quite surprising if I'm honest, although it's not the first time I've felt like I'm swimming against the tide on that score. I've heard a lot of Quads of varying vintages (I even own a pair of 57s), quite a few Maggies, lots of Martin Logans, and a few other panels and ribbons and planars, and while I admire a lot of what they can do, they just don't seem to capture my imagination. I've been in the situation many times where somebody raves about a particular sound, calling it some of the best they've ever heard, only for me to take the sweet spot and not get it at all. I bought the Quads to see if I could figure it out at home, and while I like them for some things, there are just too many sacrifices for me to consider them as a daily driver. However, they are a good example of the kind of thing I think I'm asking about: speakers that could be considered very high end in terms of sonics (even if there some sacrifices involved) without the corresponding price tag. While they don't tick the boxes for me, I know enough people who wouldn't swap their Quads for literally *anything* that they definitely meet the brief here. My local dealer has just taken on Maggie again, so I'll have a chance to investigate my thoughts again.

It's telling perhaps that there aren't many manufacturers being mentioned here that are unfamiliar to me, so maybe the other part of my question is answered. The genuinely good contenders are probably already well-known because people are buying them and talking about them. Maybe in the global information world, the good stuff actually all gets discovered? Regarding used stuff, that's my normal course of action so I would certainly agree that savings could be made there, although I suppose I simply target giants of yesteryear. That approach took a bit of a knock recently when somebody in the industry (I can't remember who) said that they thought the greatest advances in the last few years weren't in amps or sources or the like, but in speakers. Another thread perhaps...

(I should probably also say that by "giants" I wasn't talking about physical size. That's a whole other ball of wax, although I'm more than happy to hear about small speakers that can pull off the trick of massive scale. If they can do it in a 9' wide room, please let me know immediately!!)

 

[audioguy]

I also think MCH is a giant killer.

If done properly, +4000!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Then i would recommend a used pair of avalon ascendants

 

[PeterA]

I think that a reviewer would be well placed to answer this question. He is in a position to have heard many options in the same or similar setting and could make some fairly direct comparisons. I'm sure, every now and then, he hears something that is considerably better than others costing more. Another way to approach this is to focus on a favorite manufacturer and see what happens to discontinued models when new speakers are introduced.

I own Magico Mini II speakers. I don't think anyone who knows what they last sold for new would consider them a giant killer, or remotely like a bargain. Same with the Magico M5. However, after the Q1 and Q5 were introduced, the prices of used or demo Minis and M5s plummeted. The M5s went from $90K to the low $20Ks. Anyone who was lucky enough to buy one of those for $25K has a fantastic speaker that can, with the right amplifiers, compete with speakers far more expensive. I continue to get emails from people wanting to buy my Mini IIs for $10K. I just can't think of a speaker that I would rather have for than amount of money. I have seen some Mini IIs listed for as low as $9K and they disappear immediately. It is very hard to find the M5 or Mini II for sale now.

So used prices and availability are a gauge of value. And when a speaker is suddenly discontinued, there may be a dramatic price drop and great opportunity to buy something that can still compete with speakers much more expensive. I am waiting to see what will happen to the Magico Q3 if and when a Mk2 with the new tweeter and midrange is announced. "For peanuts", certainly not. But the Q3's technology, fit and finish, and resulting sound quality will remain excellent, even standard bearers, long after they stop being made. And the company will be around to support them. In a few years, a $15-20K Q3 in the right system and room will compete with many of the giants selling for much more.

 

[edorr]

Then i would recommend a used pair of avalon ascendants

I owned used Eidolon Visions (bought and sold for 1/3rd of MSRP at $9K). Fantastic speaker, but insanely overpriced at MSPR, so a bargain basement deal on a used pair gets you to reasonable pricing, not giant killer level pricing IMO.

 

[LL21]

My favorite 'giant killers' (all imho)...generally 2nd hand:

Wilson X1/Grand Slamm (used...ie, available today for $15K)
Maggie 1.7
Celestion SL6si ($200!)
Guarneri Original
SF Extrema
Apogee Stages
Apogee Full Range?

 

[amirm]

I don't have an answer to question asked in the subject of the thread to post but wanted to encourage everyone to keep going as this is a very important question to answer!

So keep it coming guys.

 

[Alpinist]

When you say "giant killer" speakers, I am going under the assumption that you mean speakers that deliver the biggest bang for the buck. From my personal experience, two speakers that fall into this category are the Magnepan 20.7 and the Revel Ultima Salon 2.

Best,
Ken

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'll throw another into the mix, and while maybe not giant killers, they were without a doubt the most enjoyable speaker I have ever owned. I could throw anything and everything at them and they didn't blink.

http://www.klipsch.com/heresy-iii-floorstanding-speaker

Certainly not the last word in speaker design, but hey...I buy on how something sounds, not what is said about them.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting that thus far not a single poster responded to the OP's question listed above which according to the OP seems to be his bottom-line question that he and perhaps others desire a response to.

I kinda' figured with all the focus on audio-science and its advancements, shouldn't it be rather straightforward for perhaps any audio-science-minded type to answer what seems to be a rather simple question? What if the "for peanuts" part was redacted from the question?

I think if there were universal agreement on how to get SOTA performance for peanuts, many of us would own the very same speaker that meets this standard. I don't see any signs of this universal agreement, anywhere. So either, it can not, or has not yet been done for peanuts, or it has been done and very few of us are aware of it. Certainly no one reading this thread has demonstrated that such a speaker exists.

Asked another way, does there exist a loudspeaker system that is full range, has a flat frequency response on axis, and a similar response off excise, exhibits very low cabinet colorations and distortions and costs what, $3,000? Does it help a system sound anything like real acoustic music? If it doesn't sound like real music, can it be SOTA?

What does State of the Art really mean? The Apple earbuds are super cheap, and for that market segment, they seem to be SOTA. Some Harman car speaker is probably SOTA in that market segment, and they are cheap also.

I think perhaps a few definitions are in order: What does the OP mean by SOTA? What market segment are we talking about? What does "for peanuts" mean?

 

[stehno]

I think if there were universal agreement on how to get SOTA performance for peanuts, many of us would own the very same speaker that meets this standard. I don't see any signs of this universal agreement, anywhere. So either, it can not, or has not yet been done for peanuts, or it has been done and very few of us are aware of it. Certainly no one reading this thread has demonstrated that such a speaker exists.

Asked another way, does there exist a loudspeaker system that is full range, has a flat frequency response on axis, and a similar response off excise, exhibits very low cabinet colorations and distortions and costs what, $3,000? Does it help a system sound anything like real acoustic music? If it doesn't sound like real music, can it be SOTA?

What does State of the Art really mean? The Apple earbuds are super cheap, and for that market segment, they seem to be SOTA. Some Harman car speaker is probably SOTA in that market segment, and they are cheap also.

I think perhaps a few definitions are in order: What does the OP mean by SOTA? What market segment are we talking about? What does "for peanuts" mean?

Peter, State-of-the-Art is simply a coinage for describing the best that current technology is capable of delivering in a given industry. You can rest assured that SOTA performance levels in high-end audio sound nothing like live music. I thought that dead horse was already beaten.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, State-of-the-Art is simply a coinage for describing the best that current technology is capable of delivering in a given industry. You can rest assured that SOTA performance levels in high-end audio sound nothing like live music. I thought that dead horse was already beaten.

I would disagree with you about performance stehno. "Nothing like live music" is a bit strong, IMO, but we've had that discussion in the other thread.

So, if by SOTA we agree that it is the best that current technology is capable of delivering, then we are talking about heroic efforts at speaker design. That simply can not be had for peanuts. IMO, it is not possible. I think the question is really about relative values. And there are some really good values for speakers on the used market. The other issue is that it is a question that requires a subject opinion to answer. And that is why there is not a lot of consensus.

I agree with the poster who asked why is it not yet possible given the advanced state of audio science and what we do indeed know about technology and hearing.