Anyone have impressions of Lampizator Horizon vs. Pacific ?

[donsachs]

Hi all,
I have had the pleasure of listening to a Lampizator Pacific fully balanced for quite some time now. I am using type 46 tubes with adapters as the output tubes. Honestly, I have never heard anything that can touch it, but I have not heard all the SOTA DACs discussed in this forum. I am having trouble finding a good thread where people have compared the Horizon to the Pacific DAC in the same system. Can someone who has heard both chime in, or at least point me to a good thread on the topic?

Note, I had a Big Mk2, which I loved, but sprung for a used Pacific and of course it is an entirely different universe. So curious to hear if the Horizon is really that much "better" than the Pacific. I build tube amps and preamps for a living, although I am slowly retiring. So I am very familiar the sound and behaviour of many tube types in various circuits. I love DHT tubes and the Horizon is using pentodes, but all tubes behave differently in different circuits. Any impressions would be appreciated.

cheers,
Don

 

[heihei]

I've made the journey from an original Golden Gate, which was then upgraded to Mk2 spec, then Pacific, and now Horizon, so may be able to help. For me, the "house" sound of Lampi is a tonal richness and accuracy in timbre that I fell in love with in the Golden Gate, and was willing to forgo some degree of detail that is available in DACs of similar price because that's where I derived greater musical pleasure and emotional engagement. This carried through to the Pacific.

In the Horizon, you get both - the harmonics to create the emotional engagement and an incredible level of detail that provides deep insight into the recording. As such, the Horizon is a big step on from the Pacific and an incredibly satisfying listen. It is a cliche but nonetheless true to say that if you spend time listening to the Horizon then drop the Pacific back into your system it will sound broken.

Happy to answer other questions.

 

[donsachs]

I've made the journey from an original Golden Gate, which was then upgraded to Mk2 spec, then Pacific, and now Horizon, so may be able to help. For me, the "house" sound of Lampi is a tonal richness and accuracy in timbre that I fell in love with in the Golden Gate, and was willing to forgo some degree of detail that is available in DACs of similar price because that's where I derived greater musical pleasure and emotional engagement. This carried through to the Pacific.

In the Horizon, you get both - the harmonics to create the emotional engagement and an incredible level of detail that provides deep insight into the recording. As such, the Horizon is a big step on from the Pacific and an incredibly satisfying listen. It is a cliche but nonetheless true to say that if you spend time listening to the Horizon then drop the Pacific back into your system it will sound broken.

Happy to answer other questions.

Thanks so much for your reply! That is exactly what I was after. Someone who actually has lived with both. Of course economics are an issue, but I may be demoing some gear in Seattle at the show, and I think I can wrangle a Horizon DAC loan as the source. Not sure it will all come together, but looking promising. So perhaps I will get to hear the Horizon. Yes, the Lampizators have a signature. I am a tube guy and so is Lukasz. I can build any amp I want, but I only build tube gear. There is that huge sound stage and the fact that all instruments just sound rich and full as they should to my ear. Others have other tastes as it should be. Some of us like horns and open baffle speakers, others like big boxes, others like mini monitors with subs. Sounds like the Horizon keeps that wonderful huge soundstage and richness, and gives even more detail. Would be quite a trick given the loss the DHT outputs, but sounds like Lukasz was able to pull it off. I hope I get to hear one soon.

 

[jbrrp1]

Heihei encapsulates the improvement well. My path was Big 7 > GG1 > Pacific > Horizon. I was delighted with my Pacific using KR 242 outputs, but the Horizon with NOS Tungsol 6SN7's and the KT170's bring all of the incisive, speedy sound that the 242's added to the richer sounding Pacific, but now I get everything: huge soundstage (if in the recording), rich tonality (if in the recording), fast dynamics both macro and micro, a significantly more revealing look into the sound space, and a fleshier, just "right" feeling sound of musical voices. Absolutely every recording, even the bad ones, pull you into the music. Now I'm going to have to hear the Wadax system some time to hear how it gets better than this! (If it does.)

The Taiko Extreme doing server duties is clearly an equal partner in this sonic outcome, IME in my system, it should be noted.

 

[Golum]

If you read Horizon thread here on WBF vast majority of early Horizon adopters came from Pacific, me included. As many I’ve been lucky enough to posses and hear literally every single Lampi DAC in final form or sometimes pre production form from the Amber to Horizon. As HeiHei wrote i stand by his words 100%. H just has all the beauty of Pacific, GG2, TRP and B3 combined in one package which is just amazing. All mentioned models excel in specific points while you might miss something in GG2 which Pac has and so on. Nothing like that with H…
Also it does not use pentodes as output tubes but rather double triodes while pentodes are there to do some specific job which Lukasz explained in one of his posts in that thread.
Just my two cents on the topic…

 

[donsachs]

If you read Horizon thread here on WBF vast majority of early Horizon adopters came from Pacific, me included. As many I’ve been lucky enough to posses and hear literally every single Lampi DAC in final form or sometimes pre production form from the Amber to Horizon. As HeiHei wrote i stand by his words 100%. H just has all the beauty of Pacific, GG2, TRP and B3 combined in one package which is just amazing. All mentioned moxels excel in specific points while you might miss something in GG2 which Pac has and fhe same goes for other models. Nothing like that with H…
Also it does not use pentodes as output tubes but rather double triodes while pentodes are there to do some specific job which Lukasz explained in one of his posts in that thread.
Just my two cents on the topic…

Thanks Golum. I was searching for variations on Pacific vs Horizon and not just Horizon. I found it. There are many responses, but I found the one by Lukasz stating that the KT88 and such are anode loads, and also cathode and the 6SN7 and such are the actual output tube. Fine, that tells me what I want to know. I still use the 6SN7 in many designs as they are very linear and there are several wonderful modern production tubes. For example the Linlai E-6SN7 holds its own against any of my "holy grail" NOS collection in my preamp and amp circuits. When used correctly a 6SN7 type can rival most anything sonically. Anyway, thanks for the point at that Horizon thread. Now I understand the circuit more. As I said, I hope to be able to borrow a Horizon from Fred, for the Seattle demos and I will finally get to hear one. I am afraid I will want one and then have to figure out how to pay for it!

I know there are many fine DACs in the world, but once you are a Lampizator listener it is hard to listen to anything else.... Others prefer other things of course, but we know who we are.... At this level of performance there is no right or wrong, only what we like.

 

[heihei]

One thing to add reading the above, is that the Horizon provides much better delineation of the space that musicians occupy. It has the same huge soundstage that GG / Pacific has, but each performer carves out their own space within it. Important to note though that this doesn't come at the expense of overall musical coherence, which makes this a really compelling aspect to the Horizon's performance.

 

[donsachs]

One thing to add reading the above, is that the Horizon provides much better delineation of the space that musicians occupy. It has the same huge soundstage that GG / Pacific has, but each performer carves out their own space within it. Important to note though that this doesn't come at the expense of overall musical coherence, which makes this a really compelling aspect to the Horizon's performance.

So the difference between the Big 7, GG, and Pacific was the addition of active anode loading in the Pacific. The Horizon has a whole new digital engine of course, but it has anode loading and some sort of cathode loading as well using the pentodes and the 6SN7 is the actual output tube instead of the DHTs. Of course it has a whole new regulated filament supply because everything is now a convenient 6.3 V instead of having to support numerous DHT voltage requirements. I would love to see the circuit so that I would completely understand what is being done, but know I never will. I completely understand anode loading, but the cathode arrangement is a mystery that the schematic would clear up. The fact that the pentodes are anode loads for the 6SN7 (or other dual triode) and also have some connection to the cathode would mean that every time you changed one tube type it would have much more of a directly coupled effect on the other. This is a double edged sword of course. It is not just about synergy, but there is an actual effect on operating point going on as well. You change one tube, you are affecting the other type. So you get myriad combinations, but lots of interaction. I would probably put a Linlai E-6SN7 or the PSVane tennis ball in there and a really good KT88 and be done with it..... Yes I know there are entire threads on tube rolling in Lampi DACs. Maybe one day I will own one. In the meantime I just have to limp by with the Pacific. I am so hard done by.....

 

[TheHagueAudio]

Although I can’t offer insights into comparing Horizon vs Pacific, as a 3 month owner of a Pacific DAC, I can relate to the described uniqueness of these devices. I owned a GG-1 and the step up towards the Pacific was truly amazing. Unfortunately there is no immediate Horizon on my horizon, but I would like to share another upgrade that I very recently made in swapping out my previous Innuos Zenith server/streamer for a Pachanko CAT, combined with the Diretta audio protocol.
For those interested, here is the link to my post with more details…….

Post in thread 'My Pachanko Server is here. A bargain at 16k Euros?!'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...here-a-bargain-at-16k-euros.33429/post-872590

 

[rspyder]

Top of the morning to all of you. I too started with the Pacific and moved to the Horizon. Prior to my Pacific, I had the Esoteric K-01X.

As an add to the comments above, I would note that the build quality and design considerations of the Horizon clearly surpass the Pacific, from the chassis outwards. Lukasz' approach of leaving no stone unturned in the process of building upon the creative elements of his prior Lampi DACs and preamps has culminated in the development of a truly exceptional component. That comparison is not intended as a criticism of Pacific, or Lampizator's other excellent DAC offerings. It simply recognizes the incrementalism and diminishing marginal gains at each rung of the performance ladder in a designer's pursuit of better.

So, for me, the rewards of Lukasz' relentless pursuit of better is reflected in the following incremental differences between the Pacific and the Horizon. In addition to the improved separation of instruments, voices and sounds and the space each occupies (as noted in the prior comments), there is a noticeably better delineation between the foreground and background of the soundstage. Much of that comes from the combination of greater clarity and "blackness". In the audioverse, dark matter is just as important as matter.

I have come across countless tracks while listening to my Horizon where those sonic qualities and enhancements were obvious. Here, I will pick just one. On the song from Bloom, entitled "Patience: Patience is More Important Now/...", Areni Agbabian's articulation of the letter "t" (as she slowly, softly and repeatedly delivers the word "important") is rendered with unprecedented clarity and airiness. Meanwhile, everything in the background throughout that track comes through with equal clarity, as well as position and presence.

To close, I will pick just one other aspect of the Horizon that bests the Pacific and other DACs I've heard. One of our audio club members refers to the descriptor as "swell". Not in the context of something being good. Although that connotation would apply here too. By swell, I mean the grip and realism of a gradual or sudden increase in loudness of an instrument or passage. Not just transient speed, because it encompasses more than the immediacy of a symbol splash or the strike of a piano's high keys. It's the ability of a component to deliver proper pitch, pace and power through the swell of the entire musical passage including its decay.

Apologies for being pedantic. I'll move to an example. In Patricia Barber's "The Beat Goes On" from Companion, the organ pieces on that track climax with incredible realism. Sorry for the double entendres in that sentence and the prior paragraph by the way. The Horizon does an exceptional job of reproducing both transients and swells with palpable accuracy.

 

[bonzo75]

Top of the morning to all of you. I too started with the Pacific and moved to the Horizon. Prior to my Pacific, I had the Esoteric K-01X.

As an add to the comments above, I would note that the build quality and design considerations of the Horizon clearly surpass the Pacific, from the chassis outwards. Lukasz' approach of leaving no stone unturned in the process of building upon the creative elements of his prior Lampi DACs and preamps has culminated in the development of a truly exceptional component. That comparison is not intended as a criticism of Pacific, or Lampizator's other excellent DAC offerings. It simply recognizes the incrementalism and diminishing marginal gains at each rung of the performance ladder in a designer's pursuit of better.

So, for me, the rewards of Lukasz' relentless pursuit of better is reflected in the following incremental differences between the Pacific and the Horizon. In addition to the improved separation of instruments, voices and sounds and the space each occupies (as noted in the prior comments), there is a noticeably better delineation between the foreground and background of the soundstage. Much of that comes from the combination of greater clarity and "blackness". In the audioverse, dark matter is just as important as matter.

I have come across countless tracks while listening to my Horizon where those sonic qualities and enhancements were obvious. Here, I will pick just one. On the song from Bloom, entitled "Patience: Patience is More Important Now/...", Areni Agbabian's articulation of the letter "t" (as she slowly, softly and repeatedly delivers the word "important") is rendered with unprecedented clarity and airiness. Meanwhile, everything in the background throughout that track comes through with equal clarity, as well as position and presence.

To close, I will pick just one other aspect of the Horizon that bests the Pacific and other DACs I've heard. One of our audio club members refers to the descriptor as "swell". Not in the context of something being good. Although that connotation would apply here too. By swell, I mean the grip and realism of a gradual or sudden increase in loudness of an instrument or passage. Not just transient speed, because it encompasses more than the immediacy of a symbol splash or the strike of a piano's high keys. It's the ability of a component to deliver proper pitch, pace and power through the swell of the entire musical passage including its decay.

Apologies for being pedantic. I'll move to an example. In Patricia Barber's "The Beat Goes On" from Companion, the organ pieces on that track climax with incredible realism. Sorry for the double entendres in that sentence and the prior paragraph by the way. The Horizon does an exceptional job of reproducing both transients and swells with palpable accuracy.

hi, which tubes did you use on the PAC and which do you use on the horizon?

 

[rspyder]

Hello Mr. B. In my Pacific, I used the KR Anniversary 300B, the KR 5U4G and the two 6H6P dual triodes that it shipped with. I later swapped out the KR 5U4G for a Takatsuki 274B rectifier, and then settled on the Sophia Electric "Aqua" 274B.

In my Horizon, I am currently using KT170s in the power seats, Mullard ECC32 dark bottles in the converter seats and the same Sophia Electric 274B up front. I have tried/used and thoroughly enjoyed the Telefunken ECC 802S, Willgolf's fave - the Brimar 13D9 and Steve's fave - the Thomson CSF 5687, in the middle (i.e. converter) seats. I'm most drawn to the 13D9 and ECC32. I'll likely provide a brief report on those latter two tubes for the WBF's "Horizon - Tube Rolling Paradise" group chat.

Best regards,

Ray

 

[kernelbob]

I owned the Pacific for several years and was very satisfied with it's ability to accurately generate the qualities of symphonic instruments. It was the only DAC that I had experienced that created a realistic orchestral image. I purchased the Horizon, taking advantage of the trade-in program.

I had my doubts that the Horizon could increase the sense of realism of the Pacific. Somehow, the Horizon generated a significantly more realistic image. The most obvious was a much deeper soundstage and highly focused images of individual instruments. The low end of the Horizon is much more integrated compared with the Pacific. It's just one more area where the timbre of instruments just sound real.

The Horizon benefits greatly from tube selection. I use a Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifier, a quad of KT170 output tubes, and a pair of VT99 driver tubes from the 1940's. The choice of tubes allows the Horizon to really spread its wings. For example, with the installation of the Sophia 274B, the depth of the soundstage was doubled. Why a rectifier change could make that difference was surprising. The KT170 tubes are like a high powered race car. It's faster off the line, illuminating the subtle information around the +/- crossing. The VT99 drivers finally transmit the sweetness of violins, brass, etc. as well as a sense of focus and control.

 

[Sampajanna]

I dont know what to add beyond what others have said. I also went from Pacific to Horizon. It is a definite and pronounced step up. More tubes to roll, better sound. The same harmony and lack of fatigue/brightness that other dacs have, but also with more detail and insight, bigger and deeper soundstage. I would say that the Horizon refines what the Pacific puts down. That said, if there are financial considerations, know that I would have been happy with a Pacific life and could still be if I had to…

 

[rspyder]

I think we should now start a new Horizon string, unless one already exists, talking about the use of the Horizon's pre/volume control module direct to amp(s) compared to running the DAC signal through a separate preamp. I'd be keen to hear what others have to say about that comparison.

If that string has been started then I'd be grateful for its WBF link. Thank you,

Ray

 

[Sampajanna]

I use direct and love it

 

[godofwealth]

I dont know what to add beyond what others have said. I also went from Pacific to Horizon. It is a definite and pronounced step up. More tubes to roll, better sound. The same harmony and lack of fatigue/brightness that other dacs have, but also with more detail and insight, bigger and deeper soundstage. I would say that the Horizon refines what the Pacific puts down. That said, if there are financial considerations, know that I would have been happy with a Pacific life and could still be if I had to…

For me, economics was a significant factor in not choosing to upgrade my Pacific to a Horizon. Instead I put those funds into upgrades elsewhere in my system (e.g., moved up to an ARC Ref 6SE preamp to replace my aging Ref 3). The biggest change for me though was moving from electrostatics and dynamic moving coil loudspeakers that I had listened to for 30+ years to horns via a pair of Klipsch La Scalas. That’s the biggest bang for the buck of anything I’ve experienced in a long long time. I use a Triode Labs 45 SET monoblock that I recently upgraded to use Western Electric 422a rectifiers (possibly the rarest and most beautiful sounding 5U4G tube I’ve heard and I’ve heard dozens!). 1 watt of glorious SET power does such an amazing job of producing rich harmonics and dynamics that I can never go back to high powered tube amps again. All in all, I’m glad I chose not to upgrade and instead use the funds elsewhere.

 

[John T]

I have come to the realization with the right amplification/speakers/room and all the rest of the food chain. The Horizon will sound good with light bulbs! You will need adapters! I continue to marvel at this piece of gear. I have a great collection of Tubes, changing creates a nice nuanced variance. Its difficult to distinguish. If I go with Sylvania 6SN7GT or Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates, they both sound splendid! I'm listening to Blues People Eric Bibb, with the Mullards ECC32, also fantastic! Point I'm attempting to make is, unless the rest of your system is out of sync, this Horizon is a beautiful piece of work...PS Be careful with those light bulbs, do not exceed 100 watts!!

 

[Anyoldears]

Theres a Mk2 upgrade available for €4k for the Pacific now https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/pacific-dac

"Any Pacific DAC no matter the age or variant can be upgraded to the "2" status for a fixed price of 4000 Euro. We replace the whole digital section and also the LAN input is gone - we remove the LAN input in favor of the AES/EBU, TOSLINK, SPDIF and USB.
Older USB cards get replaced with the newest JL-USB.
Shipping and customs fees are in addition to the 4000 Euro fee.
The upgraded DAC gets a 3 years warranty (excluding tubes)."

 

[christoph]

Theres a Mk2 upgrade available for 4k for the Pacific now https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/pacific-dac

Oh wow
Thanks for the info