Another Apogee thread? You bet!

[Zero000]

That going to a setup that just sounded so right and demanded yr utmost attention was like an adrenaline shot to the heart
Ron will be jumping on me re "hyperbole alert", but the demo just requires description in such glowing terms
So, I'm sold on the sound, practicality in my room, and cost
Where I remain confused is re amps synergy
Now, I know other Apogee threads flog this to death w the general consensus being tubes and ribbons don't really mix
Just how could 80W 211s so make the Duettas sing when more powerfully rated Ayons (200W in pentode mode) just not quite get there
Caveat here, Ked preferred the Ayons to Justin's 211s, Justin not so sure re the comparison
And 120W NATs Transmitters SETetrodes on moderately more efficient Analysis Omegas IMHO not enough
Similarly Divas on Spectrals SS again seemed a poor match

Bolded bit - that's it in a nutshell really. You don't really listen to Interstellas, you sit there in awe of them.

I had three months to assess the Ayons. They were good amps. But if I preferred them I would have bought them as Ked offered them to me at a great price. At the end of they day, the 211s are more dynamic, more fun and more lively. Not as refined as the Ayon Orthos, but screw that, I'm in this game for fun and entertainment, not refinement.

If I was into classical I could see Orthos being my preference but I am not.

BTW Interstella is a reserved name for my speakers. The 'r' from Interstellar is stripped to match Duetta.

Since Marc's speakers will not be made to the same spec, I suggest something else e.g. Apogee Duetta Equinox.

 

[Zero000]

Grant (Lissnr) uses 2 REL for 24 Hz and below. He keeps it on minimum setting

Interstella is flat at 21 Hz in room according to my test mic, and produces large excursions well below that frequency. I gave up trying to get a Martin Logan Descent to blend with it. Partly that was due to the Descent's controls being inflexible and not designed to cut in at such low LF. Another aspect is the sonic signature of cone bass just DOES NOT work with panel bass. I might just be acutely sensitive to that, but that is my opinion.

IMHO don't go there. YMMV but you could spend a lot of money and come out disappointed. That said you might like it. Everyone is different.

 

[microstrip]

Interstella is flat at 21 Hz in room according to my test mic, and produces large excursions well below that frequency. I gave up trying to get a Martin Logan Descent to blend with it. Partly that was due to the Descent's controls being inflexible and not designed to cut in at such low LF. Another aspect is the sonic signature of cone bass just DOES NOT work with panel bass. I might just be acutely sensitive to that, but that is my opinion.

IMHO don't go there. YMMV but you could spend a lot of money and come out disappointed. That said you might like it. Everyone is different.

The Descent is tailored to electrostatic speakers - I tried a pair with Soundlab's and it sounded very good, but not optimum. However its type of bass is very different from the bass of Apogees. Longtime ago I owned Apogee Duetta Signatures - I have described my experience with them in WBF and I can easily see why someone appreciating the type of music spiritofmusic listed can became enamored and find that he found nirvana.

Panels interaction with the room is very critical in the bass. They radiate out-of-phase signal from the back and unless the room walls deal with it they will lack body due to nuls in the bass response. However in the adequate room bass panel can be great and extended in the lows. IMHO no typical sub can compensate for an inadequate room when using panels.

Perhaps the new JLAudio CR-1 crossover with its Q control can help blending a sub to panels - some people have reported good things about it, but not with dipole speakers.

And yes, Paul Simon "Graceland" never sounded the same since the Duettas's ...

 

[Zero000]

What surprises me is Marc's summation of what they sound like, both on here and personally. He hears exactly what I hear, or so it seems. I've never come across such similarity of viewpoint.

 

[bonzo75]

What surprises me is Marc's summation of what they sound like, both on here and personally. He hears exactly what I hear, or so it seems. I've never come across such similarity of viewpoint.

Given that both of you are well over 50...

 

[bonzo75]

Panels interaction with the room is very critical in the bass. They radiate out-of-phase signal from the back and unless the room walls deal with it they will lack body due to nuls in the bass response. .

I have often wondered about this. Apart from distancing from the wall upto 2m, and trying to make sure front wall is parallel to plane of the speakers, what can one do...sure, distance from sidewalls can be optimised - closer will make bass tighter with some room...but unless the rest of the room is too big, will it make a difference.

 

[Zero000]

Given that both of you are well over 50...

And are therefore countless years ahead in terms of audiophile experience. You are like a tin of condensed milk by comparison

Granted, though - we may be deaf.

 

[microstrip]

I have often wondered about this. Apart from distancing from the wall upto 2m, and trying to make sure front wall is parallel to plane of the speakers, what can one do...sure, distance from sidewalls can be optimised - closer will make bass tighter with some room...but unless the rest of the room is too big, will it make a difference.

It is much more than distance. A rigid wall bounces the wave and can result in either bass gain or nuls, depending on distance and frequency being considered. A non-rigid wall absorbs the bass - reducing bass, but also helps to avoid nuls. And we must include floor and ceiling. Real walls can be somewhere between.

It is why opinions on bass quality depend so much on the moment and place.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, how do you think my room will suit or not suit Duettas?
Loft space, so descending eaves 30 degrees from mid point apex max 10' high down to 4' high side walls, 18' room width overall
Overall depth 55'
Flr area 1000 sq ft, volume 7000 cub ft
I have ability to place Duettas 5'-10' from rear walls, 8' apart, at this spacing they end up 2.5' from side walls, and outer top corner 1' from descending eaves
I can sit any distance from them 8'-15', and still have half the room behind me

 

[bonzo75]

It is much more than distance. A rigid wall bounces the wave and can result in either bass gain or nuls, depending on distance and frequency being considered. A non-rigid wall absorbs the bass - reducing bass, but also helps to avoid nuls. And we must include floor and ceiling. Real walls can be somewhere between.

It is why opinions on bass quality depend so much on the moment and place.

So, to take out nulls, one can add a false ceiling to reduce ceiling height and soften walls, especially the front wall for apogee?

 

[microstrip]

So, to take out nulls, one can add a false ceiling to reduce ceiling height and soften walls, especially the front wall for apogee?

Yes, but how do you want to soften a solid concrete or stone wall? If you have space you can always build a well calculated false front wall, that will work as a bass trap.

But there are no universal rules - IMHO we have to work case by case. Some fortunate people do not need any treatment at all!

 

[bonzo75]

Micro, how do you think my room will suit or not suit Duettas?
Loft space, so descending eaves 30 degrees from mid point apex max 10' high down to 4' high side walls, 18' room width overall
Overall depth 55'
Flr area 1000 sq ft, volume 7000 cub ft
I have ability to place Duettas 5'-10' from rear walls, 8' apart, at this spacing they end up 2.5' from side walls, and outer top corner 1' from descending eaves
I can sit any distance from them 8'-15', and still have half the room behind me

Micro can't answer that. He is not an astrologer. What you need to do is, Jon right now has a cheap duetta I think. Pay him 500 quid to drive it over and test it. Test it with your NAT and a 500 quid Crown class D 500w amp. If you get the bass, pay him to restore it to a Deutta Battlestar Galactica. Keep the crown amp to burn in the panels for the first 200 hours, after which you can always sell it with minimal loss.

Correction: Duetta Battlesta Galactica

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked and Justin, watch yr "r"s
I'll prob call any potential Duettas: "Crash And Burn", or "Midlife Crisis" or "Final FINAL Upgrade"
Or best of all "I Went To Jon And All I Got Were These Lousy Speakers"
That's a good idea Ked
But we still haven't figured out how to get them into my room
My spiral stairs are only 28" wide, all 20 of them, so no go for 30" wide Duettas
And the only other access is thru a 4'x2' hatch, 10' off the flr
Once we figure the access issue I can consider this

 

[Zero000]

Apogee Duetta Fermi Paradox Dyson Sphere Ion Drive Quantum Apocalypse. God you can have fun dreaming up Duettas. I wanna do it all over again...

Nice idea Ked but a pair of sub-par Duettas may well put him right off the whole idea. Check to see what sort of state Jon thinks they're in first. They may not even work. Generally the best resort is to find a pair as screwed up as possible as cheaply as possible cos the only thing you are interested in is getting the magnet arrays.

 

[Zero000]

Once we figure the access issue I can consider this

LOL what a dilemma. I have the same bed as David Bailey the photographer. It weighs an absolute ton. He had his put in his roof conversion via a crane, bit by bit.

Same issue - spiral staircase.

 

[Zero000]

Can we see this room Marc? Post a photo?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Had an interesting experience at Blue58's today
I've got v accustomed to his AG Duos Omegas (decade old vintage, none of this rubbish new fangled dsp'd bass XD version for him)
Superlative home made 45s tube amps
Stellar SGM 2016 server/T&A Dac8
All round sorted system w Sablon Reservas loom and Oyaides dedicated lines
I've been a massive fan of his system, a beguiling combination of transparency and bloom, depth and forthrightness
It's been the reference I've measured the evolution of my Zus spkrs based system from my Hovland days, thru Audion 845s to current NATs parallel 211s, and move to over performing new acoustic and uber power grid of Reservas/Oyaides dedicated lines/Westwick 8kVA balanced transformer/isolated feed from rest of chapel
Today he showed off a few impvts incl software changes to the SGM incl a filter meaning he's upscaling to dsd128 instead of 512, and custom IEC install in his dac
A v handy upstick in heft and substance, lowering of already v low noise floor
More solidity, more transparency, more analog sensibility
More of all the right stuff

Decided to play some of the tracks from Justin's demo, incl B Marley, Genesis, and as a guilty pleasure Barry Gray Joe 90 theme (oh to be 4 years old again when this was first broadcast in 1968)
Fascinating comparison
On balance the Duos prob have more transparency and depth than Justin's Interstellas
I'm more drawn into proceedings
But not a massive win for the Duos
However if I want to be v accurate in reporting, Duos have the vote on see thru-ness
On presence and vitality, the Interstellas have it
Just more energetic and pertinent, w greater bass presence and treble energy
So a kind of tie overall
Where the Interstellas win in injury time is the seamless cohesive holistic continuousness of the sound, a wall of energy w no apparent gradations from low bass to high treble, and the energy having vertical density
I'm just not hearing this anywhere else
So for the first time in a long while, I'm finding a presentation that just does more than horns and my Zus
Final gain is that Apogees certainly more suited to my library of lps and cds
Now, this is not slam dunk
So much of Barry's Duos' presentation really works
It's taken a v special transducer to press my endorphin buttons more strongly

 

[Zero000]

You need Ked's input to decide where to glue the Mooks to the front panel of Your Apogees. I expect a plethora of Zilplex too. Maximum foo please, including silly expensive caps that just aren't worth the money.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ha!
He knows what I think about Mooks
I was a true believer
But have fallen off the wagon

 

[Zero000]

Marc asked by text for these links before he went to listen to the Duos but I missed it.

Some things we listened to.

The very first track Marc heard:

Trentemoller - Rykketid. If you like that try this: https://tidal.com/album/37688955

Just follow the links for the rest TIDAL hasn't really worked out how to do this well for forum posts and I can't be bothered to name them all.

Joe 90 - fabulous version

https://tidal.com/track/8230849

https://tidal.com/track/3603508

And I should have played this, which is pure madness: https://tidal.com/album/2366630

Not forgetting Karen: https://tidal.com/track/1229230