Another Apogee thread? You bet!

spiritofmusic

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Hey Justin, we audiofools love to delude ourselves, and on a regular basis.
I tell Ked how stupendous my Zus are, he gently lets me down how poorly they sounded in my room.
Now in the new room, I get 200% what he was trying to say.
And w you, I come over, kinda highlight what I struggled with in yr Interstellas overly etched, hyper trebly presentation, you pretty much begged to differ.
And now a couple of months on you now report you've radically altered the crossovers to tame that high end.
I guess I have thank Ked to have given me that skeptical perspective.
Btw, you don't have to thank me for providing the same to you
 

bonzo75

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Hey Justin, we audiofools love to delude ourselves, and on a regular basis.
I tell Ked how stupendous my Zus are, he gently lets me down how poorly they sounded in my room.
Now in the new room, I get 200% what he was trying to say.
And w you, I come over, kinda highlight what I struggled with in yr Interstellas overly etched, hyper trebly presentation, you pretty much begged to differ.
And now a couple of months on you now report you've radically altered the crossovers to tame that high end.
I guess I have thank Ked to have given me that skeptical perspective.
Btw, you don't have to thank me for providing the same to you
That over etched ness also comes from his old laptop and power cable. I once replaced his power cable with a Tara cobalt and the lost some of that etched sound plus other positives, he heard those too and accepted, but a few months later went back to saying the cable did not make any difference
 

spiritofmusic

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Justin has obv learnt how to put the Genie back in the bottle.
I can w all honesty say that if you asked me to swap my room and current sound now for my old flat w an unlimited choice of any components, AF, Rockport, Apogee Full Range, GG, Dartzeel, Gryphon, whatever, I would turn the swap down flat, so exemplary is my current situation.
 

User211

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Justin has obv learnt how to put the Genie back in the bottle.
I can w all honesty say that if you asked me to swap my room and current sound now for my old flat w an unlimited choice of any components, AF, Rockport, Apogee Full Range, GG, Dartzeel, Gryphon, whatever, I would turn the swap down flat, so exemplary is my current situation.
I just can't take that seriously. Something is wrong. Where is the psychologist? Has Marc discovered Audio Nirvana? We all know that is impossible;)
 

User211

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That over etched ness also comes from his old laptop and power cable. I once replaced his power cable with a Tara cobalt and the lost some of that etched sound plus other positives, he heard those too and accepted, but a few months later went back to saying the cable did not make any difference
I think I was just trying to placate you when you were there. I didn't really hear a difference when it was in.

The real lesson on the x-over changes is that it was only really the substitution of cheap components for foo that pulled the edginess away. Not the x-over values themselves. The edginess was still there albeit to a lesser extent. Jon's original x-over had no caps in the path just a resistor and inductor (in this section of the crossover) and that was edgy in extreme but it had the big 3-5K hump which was not corrected for. You need a cap in the circuit to get rid of it. And by the lesson learnt you need a good cap, plus fine, expensive resistors and very good inductors.
 

spiritofmusic

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Nope, I would have had to have hit the whiskey and prescription painkillers in my old room.
Seriously, £70k spent on my room construction and pwr grid, quiet and expressive acoustics, 700 sq ft and 5000 cub ft to allow music to breathe, gentle pitched roof to cut out some anomalies, no apparent bass nodes, system set up perfectly symettrical w same distance of Zus to side walls 4' and front walls 9', space behind listening position, and then dedicated electrical feed seperate from rest of domestic, dedicated CU and 6 Oyaides lines, Furutech duplexes and 85kg 8kVA balanced pwr, plus my Entreq.
This mega investment has been SO successful and all-encompassing that it's an uber system upgrade in its own right, and has totally converted me to the twin mantras of "the room is everything" and "noise is the enemy".
It's no exaggeration to make the claim I did in my previous post.
None at all. Now all my remaining efforts are going into lowering noise flr even more w full Sablon Elites PCs, SR B fuses and Stacore-ing every component. Other than a potential issue maybe requiring me to change my tt and a streaming solution, I'm done on components upgrades.
And that means no flagship Zus, NATs Magnetostat AND no Apogees or horns. A good place to be.
 
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User211

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Nope, I would have had to have hit the whiskey and prescription painkillers in my old room.
Seriously, £70k spent on my room construction and pwr grid, quiet and expressive acoustics, 700 sq ft and 5000 cub ft to allow music to breathe, gentle pitched roof to cut out some anomalies, no apparent bass nodes, system set up perfectly symettrical w same distance of Zus to side walls 4' and front walls 9', space behind listening position, and then dedicated electrical feed seperate from rest of domestic, dedicated CU and 6 Oyaides lines, Furutech duplexes and 85kg 8kVA balanced pwr, plus my Entreq.
This mega investment has been SO successful and all-encompassing that it's an uber system upgrade in its own right, and has totally converted me to the twin mantras of "the room is everything" and "noise is the enemy".
It's no exaggeration to make the claim I did in my previous post.
None at all. Now all my remaining efforts are going into lowering noise flr even more w full Sablon Elites PCs, SR B fuses and Stacore-ing every component. Other than a potential issue maybe requiring me to change my tt and a streaming solution, I'm done on components upgrades.
And that means no flagship Zus, NATs Magnetostat AND no Apogees or horns. A good place to be.
Now I might have had a glass of wine or two, but that sounds like pretty much normal.

I must someday witness this. I will make the effort to come round within the next year or two.

It will sound like another system, though. Vastly different from mine. That's where as you say the opinions of others do count.

Anyway, the Apogees most certainly are still miles away from the AN/Zu camp. But does it matter? They are what they are. Perplexing, intimidating, confusing, mind blowing, hating, loving, correct and incorrect. But really quite close to reality in a way.
 

spiritofmusic

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Don't rush all at once, Justin.
Systems are like GFs and children, we all think we have the sexiest partners and cutest kids, but others may beg to differ.
Your sound is exemplary in many ways, but I'll take the tone dense heft in my upper bass/lower mids, and w all the changes you can manipulate yr sound by crossover changes, I'm v glad my Zus literally have one cap each in high- and low-pass filters meaning I have limited scope to tinker endlessly (I've already gone to top of the line Duelunds leading to a much more textured and nuanced midrange and transition to subs and Supertweeters).
 

bonzo75

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Don't rush all at once, Justin.
Systems are like GFs and children, we all think we have the sexiest partners and cutest kids, but others may beg to differ.
Your sound is exemplary in many ways, but I'll take the tone dense heft in my upper bass/lower mids, and w all the changes you can manipulate yr sound by crossover changes, I'm v glad my Zus literally have one cap each in high- and low-pass filters meaning I have limited scope to tinker endlessly (I've already gone to top of the line Duelunds leading to a much more textured and nuanced midrange and transition to subs and Supertweeters).
Marc, you are effectively telling him your children are not good enough, mine (yours) are.
 

spiritofmusic

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I'm claiming The Fifth Amendment
 

User211

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Don't rush all at once, Justin.
Systems are like GFs and children, we all think we have the sexiest partners and cutest kids, but others may beg to differ.
Your sound is exemplary in many ways, but I'll take the tone dense heft in my upper bass/lower mids, and w all the changes you can manipulate yr sound by crossover changes, I'm v glad my Zus literally have one cap each in high- and low-pass filters meaning I have limited scope to tinker endlessly (I've already gone to top of the line Duelunds leading to a much more textured and nuanced midrange and transition to subs and Supertweeters).
There's no need to say anything Marc.

Your reaction of shock/awe after Interstella exposure just said it all for me. There's no way self-justification and 'my super system' claims will ever take that away.

You were exposed, that's the main point. And the effect was plain to see.:)
 

spiritofmusic

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Hi Justin, yes, shock and awe was a good conclusion to draw.
But as with all things amazing, there is always a ying to the yang.
You have to wonder if the demo at yrs was as compelling as you claim, why for the price of a couple of Stacores I didn't just spend the same cash on a pr of Henk's Apogee Duettas.
They'd be on order right now if I had.
The ying downside of Apogees in my case outweighs the yang positives of ownership.
But the evening at yours goes down in my top 3 of home demos of any audio at any price.
 

bonzo75

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Hi Justin, yes, shock and awe was a good conclusion to draw.
But as with all things amazing, there is always a ying to the yang.
You have to wonder if the demo at yrs was as compelling as you claim, why for the price of a couple of Stacores I didn't just spend the same cash on a pr of Henk's Apogee Duettas.
They'd be on order right now if I had.
The ying downside of Apogees in my case outweighs the yang positives of ownership.
Stacores, entreq, etc are accessories you can use on any speaker. The claim was by you, not him, originally :)
 

User211

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Hi Justin, yes, shock and awe was a good conclusion to draw.
But as with all things amazing, there is always a ying to the yang.
You have to wonder if the demo at yrs was as compelling as you claim, why for the price of a couple of Stacores I didn't just spend the same cash on a pr of Henk's Apogee Duettas.
They'd be on order right now if I had.
The ying downside of Apogees in my case outweighs the yang positives of ownership.
But the evening at yours goes down in my top 3 of home demos of any audio at any price.
I'll accept that as very fair.

There's been loads of people here and only one person I know has actually gone out and bought some as a result. But that was after hearing my original refurbs.

As you and others well know actually getting a pair isn't easy and involves all sorts of issues you have to battle with. As in fact is well documented in this thread by your posts.
 

User211

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When I say loads I suspect around 15-20 have heard both my original refurbs and Interstella, with far less Interstella as a proportion of the total.

So not that many really. It just seems like it. The only buyer was a BBC sound engineer, which is a pretty clued up and cool customer I'd say.
 

spiritofmusic

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I'm sitting here in a lovely church nr the N Norfolk coast at the interval of a concert featuring Stravinsky, Haydn, Walton and Arnold.
Again, marvelling at the amazing dynamic swoops that even live music played reasonably moderately loudly can achieve.
Justin and Ked, this is where the prowess of Apogees and esp horns really show their mettle.
Again, despite live "seeming" to be best replicated by digital, as the concert goes on, that deep tonal density, variety of inflection and timbral accuracy is really an analog "thing", and no way do I ever give up my lps.
Where I kind of diverge from Justin's view is that nothing I heard at his setup does the chocolate rich midband and seamless mids to upper bass I'm hearing here. This is where I truly believe if my Zus/NATs have a superiority its in this low centre of gravity mids/bass heft and cohesiveness.
So Justin, this is the primary reason that despite me falling under the spell of yr Interstellas treble energy and wall of sound bass slam, the slightly recessed mids and esp cohesive mids to bass lack of continuousness that I hear totally live and to a great extent at home, maybe not to my liking in not so remarkable at yours.
Now, if I'd got the chocolate rich mids and totally seamless mids to bass signature at yours to rival my Zus/NATs w all the other slam dunk amazingness yr Duettas were stupendous at, I'd have had a REAL dilemma...
 

bonzo75

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I'm sitting here in a lovely church nr the N Norfolk coast at the interval of a concert featuring Stravinsky, Haydn, Walton and Arnold.
Again, marvelling at the amazing dynamic swoops that even live music played reasonably moderately loudly can achieve.
Justin and Ked, this is where the prowess of Apogees and esp horns really show their mettle.
Again, despite live "seeming" to be best replicated by digital, as the concert goes on, that deep tonal density, variety of inflection and timbral accuracy is really an analog "thing", and no way do I ever give up my lps.
Where I kind of diverge from Justin's view is that nothing I heard at his setup does the chocolate rich midband and seamless mids to upper bass I'm hearing here. This is where I truly believe if my Zus/NATs have a superiority its in this low centre of gravity mids/bass heft and cohesiveness.
So Justin, this is the primary reason that despite me falling under the spell of yr Interstellas treble energy and wall of sound bass slam, the slightly recessed mids and esp cohesive mids to bass lack of continuousness that I hear totally live and to a great extent at home, maybe not to my liking in not so remarkable at yours.
Now, if I'd got the chocolate rich mids and totally seamless mids to bass signature at yours to rival my Zus/NATs w all the other slam dunk amazingness yr Duettas were stupendous at, I'd have had a REAL dilemma...
Well, you just have to listen to another pair of Apogees then, because the mid bass and lower mid is there strength, much more than the Zus, as well as the seamlessness.

What you are hearing in your two apogees is 1. Spectral, midbass is less. 2. SETs driving apogees, you need class A SS, a nice one
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure Ked, I'm sure I'll get around to it. It's not a priority for me atm.
Maybe when you've got yr Scintillas suitably pwrd I'll pop over and get the magic.