Another Apogee thread? You bet!

[microstrip]

I too have said it here that stats and valves are best on opera. I changed.

Because you heard something else in better conditions. Probably you will change again when you listen to better stats in better conditions ...

 

[microstrip]

At opera you are generally at a certain distance but in a recital it's different. I have been there and was between 3 and 4 meters from Tereza Berganza singing beside a concert piano. The sound was incredible, the room was big with a few hundreds of seats. The sound level was very high, no sono there. It's a unique experience. And I regularly attends opera.

We can always imagine an unique and unusual live listening session where our preferred speaker sounds better. I am addressing typical levels at the typical 10 meters from stage. But yes, we have different preferences and it can explain a lot - I would never get row A - F tickets.

 

[bonzo75]

Because you heard something else in better conditions. Probably you will change again when you listen to better stats in better conditions ...

Actually, no, I wish I could listen to Apogees in good conditions. All apogee people I meet seem to spend only on the speaker. They care less for anything else, maybe that is the mindset that takes them to restores? While I love Henk's room (behind Mike's, Yamamuras, and maybe the horns room that I am considering), it is only the Grands and current and power. No preamp, streamed from computer to a 5k Phasure dac. Bellwether cables. Modded old amps. I would give anything to try some quality power amps on it with good preamps and a TT, Tripoint, and isolation.

It is the density of the tone of the tone of the apogee. Analysis has it better than stats too, especially on baritone. But the pure ribbon of the Scintilla (and FR) kills all. At least I will struggle to hear better vocals ever than the Scinnie with a simple Krell KSA 100 and resolution cantata. Maybe a Scinnie with a Symphonic Line Kraft and Lampi if I go that route.

 

[bonzo75]

We can always imagine an unique and unusual live listening session where our preferred speaker sounds better. I am addressing typical levels at the typical 10 meters from stage. But yes, we have different preferences and it can explain a lot - I would never get row A - F tickets.

That logic assumes there is a preferred speaker first. What do you in the situation where a speaker follows due to sound preference? I owned Summits and heard stats a lot and at one time my dream was Soundlabs, and I did not like Apogees for a while, preferring Analysis to them.

As for tickets, I get all tickets. I average once a week. I have been all over the various concert halls in various seating positions in London, and some outside London. I wouldn't do A - F either. But it doesn't matter

 

[microstrip]

Actually, no, I wish I could listen to Apogees in good conditions. (...)

So you are prepared to commit to a speaker you have never listened in top conditions? We can call it audiophile faith!

 

[bonzo75]

So you are prepared to commit to a speaker you have never listened in top conditions? We can call it audiophile faith!

It sounds better in these conditions than what I have listened to other speakers in top conditions

 

[thekong]

I spent a lot of time with Schick and Schroeder, the designers, in the WE room. Schick owns an apogee caliper and said the Kong's FR system in Hong Kong is the best apogee system he has heard. Panels in the middle of the room and when you go to either side, you get the image. Michael, accurate?

Hi Ked, I am really flattered by Thomas’ comment!

The photo was taken by Thomas during his visit! The Fullrange was about 11’ from the front wall, and the room was a truncated rectangle, basically 15’ (W) X 22’ (L) at the front end, joined by 11’ X 11’ at the back end. The ceiling was slightly slanted front to back, with the tallest point at the middle with around 13’ and slightly slanted to the front and back to around 12’

The speaker positioning followed Limage’s method, but since the room was not a true rectangle, I didn’t get the full benefit.

Looking back at the photo, I was active biamping the Fullrange with a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 for the mid/treble, and a pair of Power 3 for the bass, on that day.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thekong, that's a setup and a half!
I find it fascinating you site yr FRs 11' from front wall
My 37.5' deep room (18' wide) could certainly accommodate my potential Duettas install at that distance
But the message I'm getting is not to really consider going in excess of 5'

 

[spiritofmusic]

Is there something unusual in yr room dims that allow pulling of the FRs so far into yr space?

 

[bonzo75]

Thekong, that's a setup and a half!
I find it fascinating you site yr FRs 11' from front wall
My 37.5' deep room (18' wide) could certainly accommodate my potential Duettas install at that distance
But the message I'm getting is not to really consider going in excess of 5'

Strange, for such a big room. How many big room owners gave this feedback? Henk did say minimum 2m for proper below 100 Hz response, and those with smaller rooms might place at 1.4, 1.5m and it will sound maybe not optimal but will sound fine.

 

[thekong]

Hi Marc, the Duetta Sig. I had (still have), before the Fullrange, was situated in the exact location, with very good results.

I believe in Limage’s method, which suggests the best location of the speakers is being dictated by the room instead of the speakers themselves. We have tested different kind of speakers in his room, from the smallest, like the BBC LS3/5a, to the relatively larger Magneplaner 3.6, and the best locations were always within an inch or so (from front wall) from each other. Another interesting thing is that, with this method, the speakers always being located very close to the side walls (no more than 2’). As you can see in the photo, my Fullrange was only about 12” from the side walls.

So, I suggest you trying moving your Zu to test whether this method works for you, and your room. At least moving speaker is free

 

[spiritofmusic]

So this is the 40/60 rule, Apogees 40% from front wall, 60% from rear wall?

 

[thekong]

So this is the 40/60 rule, Apogees 40% from front wall, 60% from rear wall?

Very likely in a true rectangular room in our experience, but may not apply to your room. For example, in my truncated rectangular room, the Fullrange was only about 1/3 (11’ out of 33’ total length) out.

So, you need to try following the method to find the ideal location in your room. Unfortunately, we have also experienced some rooms with irregular dimensions that this method simply doesn't work!

 

[christoph]

Hi thekong

So, you need to try following the method to find the ideal location in your room. Unfortunately, we have also experienced some rooms with irregular dimensions that this method simply doesn't work!

Is there a (easy understandable) link to the method? That would be much appreciated.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thekong, seems like the maxim "if it fits, it fits" LOL
And what good rule doesn't have exceptions?

 

[thekong]

Hi thekong


Is there a (easy understandable) link to the method? That would be much appreciated.

Hi Chistoph,

I have cut and pasted Limage posting's as follow:

____________________________________________
limage on SPEAKER PLACEMENT AND ROOM COUPLING (07-04-15).................

Few of us, except perhaps the rare species of odd fossils of the pre-historic era, would have questioned the paramount importance of speaker placement nowadays. What is more debatable is where and how the speaker positions are to be determined. I have been a faithful follower of the room-coupling school and I believe that should be the best way out.

Room coupling, I am quite positive by now, really goes beyond the deliberations over direct verses reflected sound sources, because the focal point remains relatively constant irrespective of what damping treatments we have on the wall surfaces in any given room. This focal point does not seem to move until the dimension of the room is drastically changed.

To achieve effective room coupling, one has to locate the focal spot of the room first. There is a simple yet effective method to find this spot but I shall come back to that a while later. Every room has its own peaks and valleys acoustically. The peaks are resonances and the valleys are just the opposite, the suck-outs as a result of phase cancellation. I used to believe the coupling point is the spot where multiple resonances gravitate since it clocks the highest sound level throughout the audio band. If we look at it the other way round, however, the focal point of the room should more correctly be taken as the spot where phase cancellation is the lowest.

When the speakers are placed along this focal spot, phase cancellation would be at its minimal obtainable within the room and the system will then be able to resolve, with the best of fidelity and the least of distortion, the myriads of spatial information contained in the recording. The width and depth, the ambience, the layering and instrument placements etc. will all spring to life. Proper sound staging, no doubt, has much to do with this phase coherency across the audible frequency range. We all know what would happen if one speaker is inverted in phase—there will be no imaging, no soundstage, and even no sense of direction. This is the result of serious phase cancellation. Even if the speakers are properly in phase, however, there would still be a fair amount of cancellation depending on where the speakers are placed.

Ideally speaking, the room should be symmetrical in overall shape and the speakers symmetrically placed along the lengths of the rectangle. If one speaker is close to the side wall while the other is in the middle of the room, a rather common sight given the popular L-shape layout of sitting rooms in HK, there exist more chances for cancellation taking place at various frequencies, rendering the imaging blurred, stage collapsed and ambience lost.

Once the speakers are coupled to the room, the two merge into one. The room becomes an effective extension of the speakers which in turn would cease to exist visually. Tuning for solid imaging then becomes much easier. Human ears locate the sound source by detecting the time difference of direct sound arriving at the ears. To achieve three dimensional imaging, all we have to do is to cut down secondary reflections from overwhelming the direct sound. While on this subject, I like to point out that I have tried the live-end-dead-end approach and it did not work to my satisfaction. I believe speakers are designed with the average western style living room in mind where upholstery, curtain, carpet and furniture all contribute to an acoustic environment which is neither too dead nor too live, but moderate throughout. This is something worth considering when we set about fabricating our listening area. It is not uncommon to find that the more elaborately contrived the HiFi room is, the less satisfactory it often turns out.

Some fellow audiophiles suspect that because of the rather up-front placement of my speakers and because they are dipoles which radiate both ways, the large volume of space behind the speakers is encouraging tremendous amount of diffused reflections to create an artificial depth of field. Not so. Multi-mike mixed down recordings are rendered as they are, with absolutely no depth and instruments do stick with the speakers whereas a good concert hall recording has the ability to project the soundstage well beyond the boundaries of my small room while the speakers, despite their imposing size, simply disappear without a trace. Artificial depth just cannot differentiate as such.

All in all, phase coherence does appear to be the key and with this key we stand every good chance to unleash a completely new dimension of audio realism.

*****

Here comes the core—the action part of the whole thing, a method that has proven to work wonders for me over the last 30 odd years.

Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about ¼ to 1/3 from the back wall, and ¼ the breadth roughly. Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.

Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you’ve entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point.

Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot. You’ve just coupled your speakers to your room. What is left, may be the crucial part yet, is to find the perfect stereo seat. As the name suggests, you’ll have to look for the widest stereo soundstage again along the aisle, between the speakers. If one side of the room does not give you the best definition and soundstage, try the other side. I was the one having my seat moved over to the wrong side of the room to get the best out of my system.

Final note, if you are unable to find the focal spot despite trekking up and down diligently the whole afternoon, your room dimension is probably too bad to be a listening room. Try another room if you have one. If not you’ll have to move house.
______________________________________________________________

2012 04 02 updated

Doubts or suspicions around this room coupling thing do come up every now and then and honestly I am not surprised that 99% of audiophiles tend to dismiss it as just another untutored bullshit which is such a commonplace within the audio circle. Perhaps I should, every now and then, make myself better understood especially with members who are not familiar with our early postings.

The method of locating the coupling point of the room was discovered, quite accidentally in fact, during one of my speaker placement exercises. The theory behind is hardly developed and since I am no engineer, it is best left for the scientists to find out the true explanation. What is important to audiophiles, however, is that it actually works. I just want to share this with fellow audiophiles with a view that this crude method can be further refined.

Most acoustic engineers tend to indulge themselves in elaborate calculations on direct versus reflected sound along with absorption, diffusion and reverberation control, thinking that the soundstage, depth of field, ambience as well as layering all have much to do with striking the right balance among these variables. They all seem to forget one vital element — the myriad of spatial information is already embedded in a good recording and the job of home audio is to have them faithfully retrieved rather than recreated by any other means. Upon innumerable speaker placement experiments, I have been inclined to believe that this coupling phenomenon is far more complicated than sheer tonal balance adjustments and it appears to go way beyond sound wave treatments alone.

From a slightly different perspective, it could be safely argued that there exists ONE spot within every room where the speaker sounds its very best. The method I use is expressly to locate this sweet spot fairly quickly without the strenuous efforts of trying out every inch of the room. One rather obvious effect is that the sound level coming from this spot usually goes up by 2db or more across the audible range. When the speakers are placed along the line of this spot, the room comes alive to propagate the sound very effectively, in much the same way as a good concert hall does to proliferate the sound of the orchestra to its full pianissimo to fortissimo bloom.
_____________________________________________

Room modes

Room modes (or resonances) are a function of the room itself when different dimensions interact with each other. It happens with all enclosed space and hence every room would have room modes one way or the other. My room has been so calculated that these interactions only produce good resonances (+/- 3 db or thereabouts) which are conducive rather than destructive to music reproduction. It does not really matter what kind of speaker is used.

This is fairly similar to the effects of good halls. No matter what orchestra is playing, you would have good sound. If the hall is wrongly designed, particularly its shape and dimensions, remedial measures, whether by way of flying saucers or damping of the most exotic kind, are not going to turn it into a good hall.

Most audiophiles would try every means to eliminate the room influences and in extreme cases, I have seen dedicated music rooms looking more like anechoic chambers. Yet, none seems to succeed.

I tend to work the other way round. Since all rooms would have resonances and these room influences cannot entirely be avoided, I turn to find ways by which I could make the best use of the room modes to augment the speakers. Yes, room coupling is one good way to making use of the room, or more precisely good resonances of the room, to bring life to reproduced music. Big orchestras of 150 players have yet required a good hall to express the very best of their performances. You have only two speakers in your room and they need to reproduce a full orchestra plus the ambience of the hall. If you don't ask your room to help, I don't see how you could have this Hercules task accomplished.

Right, different rooms would sound different, but so are different halls. They all sound good provided they are good rooms and good halls.

Simply put, I make the best use of room resonances instead of trying to get rid of them. To do this effectively, the room dimensions, or rather their proportions are vital. The height, width and length must NOT be simple multiples of each other. To further play safe, near multiples are to be avoided as well.

Strict multiples like 2x, 3x etc. are lethal and absolutely incurable. Near multiples like 1.98, 2.95 or the like are likely to invite trouble. To play safe, I guess, 1.5 ought to be less desirable than say 1.6 and 1.6 would not be as good as 1.628469……..

You see what I mean. The whole affair may turn very complex if you do not have a simple shoebox, in which case you would have more than 6 planes to deal with, for example, slightly L shaped, corridors, openings to other areas etc. And yet as long as the listening room is, by and large, a rectangle and the major dimensions desirable, you cannot go wrong.
___________________________________________

 

[christoph]

Hi Chistoph,

I have cut and pasted Limage posting's as follow:...

Holy. That's quite a read.
I will dive into it tonight.
Thank you very much!

 

[RBFC]

Strange, for such a big room. How many big room owners gave this feedback? Henk did say minimum 2m for proper below 100 Hz response, and those with smaller rooms might place at 1.4, 1.5m and it will sound maybe not optimal but will sound fine.

My room was 27 feet long and I had my FRs 7.5 feet from the front wall.

Lee

 

[bonzo75]

Surely there must be some actual owners who gave Marc that no more than 5 feet from the wall feedback for his room

 

[Ron Resnick]

It surely was not me, Kedar.

With dipoles, in your situation (as in mine, to a lesser degree of flexibility) when you can place the speakers as far into the room and as far away from the front wall as you wish, I believe in not absorbing the back wave.

There is a formula for determining the timing of the rear wave's arrival at your ears based on the distance of the speakers from the front wall. I intend to start with the 1/3 rule (Flemming recommends this method as well) and then adjust closer to or further from the front wall to personal taste.

We all love theorizing about different scenarios, but you do not need to decide how to divide the room now. If you get Duettas, you can live with them for a long time first to see how they behave in your current room.

If, someday, you do decide to divide the room, I see no harm in setting the length of the listening room portion based on Golden Ratio dimensions, rather than on some arbitrary dimension.