Howie,With one crushed finger, surely it is a 4 digit piece of equipment?
Best line of the week!!!!
Alexx V arrive in NJ
- Thread starter marty
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Best line of the week!!!!
Thanks. You are correct, it operates at 24 Hz corner frequency ...but effects frequencies much further down according to Barry Ober. Since I run the subs in parallel with my mains (using 2 preamp outputs; 1 for each) and use a very low crossover point (~25-28 Hz), I don't think the Jensen transformer approach offers any advantages in my set-up compared to a set-up using a more traditional sub crossover point such as 60 or 80 Hz. Some have suggested I don't need the subs at all with the Alexx V, but I think it does make a difference for that last bottom half octave into the subterranean nether region .
Keep in mind that even crossing over at ~25 - 28Hz there are harmonics which will reach well into instruments' tones and as such integration isn't only about at the XO point but well above that.
Totally agree. It's a selectable slope on the JL of 12 or 24 dB so you know the higher frequencies are clearly effected.Hair-width changes in the X-over freq dial easily effect 40-50 Hz and even somewhat higher, but that's best discussed elsewhere. Even more critical is the phase control.
Yes, some new solid state low distortion current top preamplifiers sound great. This makes us ask a question - if they do not add anything to the signal why are they needed and what are they really doing in the system?
It seems you have been unlucky with the Soulution amps. I have had the 725/711 for many years without any issues and Cyril Hammer was always very friendly and professional when we spoke.
I agree with your comment about what seems to be the effects of the very low distortion o the palpable nature of their sound. Whatever the technical explanation, Soulution is a very good amplification. And the 725 plays extremely well with my Audio Research Ref 750, which are great (and very useful in the winter).
Just my question - if it sounds like the source, why not just getting a source with variable output ?
In the high end we pay for a special sound, not for the pure unaltered signal. Otherwise how would a brand have a characteristic sound?
Also with the XLF the JLAudio make a real difference. But IMHO a large room helps a lot for proper integration.
Dear Marty,first big congrats,you know my love for CH,CH Precision M10 monoblocs arrive in NJ
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There’s a lot to unpack here (in more ways than one). As I have written previously, I purchased pair of Soulution 701’s about a year ago and suffered 3 amp failures in 6 months (one amp twice) which sealed their fate as “gotta get rid of these” nasty but beautiful sounding (when they work) wonders. Being quite jaded at that point, I wasn't ready to commit to any of the uber amps out there and Elliot Goldman was kind enough to loan me a pair of remarkable Parasound JC1+monoblocs while I weaved my way down the list of possibilities for long term ownership. Deciding to buy anything else other than the JC1+, one of the greatest audio products I have ever owned, was difficult enough. Making a decision to buy any premium priced amps sight unseen without audition is unnerving, but that’s the way it has to be sometimes. Still, the questions loomed large. Would any amp that cost several multiple times the cost of the JC1+ going to really change my listening enjoyment? (Yes, the Parasounds are that good!)
In February 2021 I ordered the CH-Precision M10 monoblocs. They arrived last week. These behemoths arrived with each chassis (4 total) double boxed on a palette, and the fun began with their unpacking. CH apparently chose cardboard over crates or flight cases and although I don’t think cardboard effects sound quality,
The set up experience was unfortunately one of the worst I've ever had. To begin, let’s consider the thickness of a human fingertip, which is about 18 mm. Next, look at the gap between the bottom solid plate of the amp and a granite surface (or any shelf) upon which it will rest. That’s about 10 mm.
View attachment 82375 . View attachment 82377
Now imagine 2 guys; 4 hands, and about 20 fingers under the amp lifting this 171 lb. beast of the power supply chassis out of the carton and wanting to rest in on a hard shelf surface. Now, imagine what happens to those fingers when they try to set the amp down. Need I say more?
View attachment 82378
Simply put, this is one to the dumbest designs of all time. It really should qualify for a Darwin Award. Easy damage to your fingers can occur due to the stupidity of having such an extremely limited chassis clearance. I defy anyone (or 2 people) to take out the Power Supply by opening the top of the carton and lifting it out, and placing in on a shelf safely without incurring serious damage to your fingertips.
But wait, there’s more! In hooking up the cables, I discovered the absolutely incomprehensible execution of not providing a latch for the female XLR input. I have NEVER seen a female XLR chassis connector without an integral safety latch. Compare the CH to the JC1+ below.
View attachment 82380 . View attachment 82382
I learned that on the 10 series, CH omitted the chassis latch because they apparently had trouble with some brands of XLR connectors getting stuck in the socket that used a latch. Hmmm. Not sure why they seem to be unique in experiencing that but that’s their story and they’re sticking to it. Bottom line- after nearly amputating my fingers and having some dismay with the set-up, I was off to a bad start. In fact, I was so angry I refused to turn it on until the next day when I could look at things more calmly.
So much for the pleasantries. How does it sound? Well, I’m honestly not sure yet. It’s never worth reporting on the sound of a new component until a few days have gone buy for annealing, break-in etc. But after a week, I think its safe to say that the sound is stabilizing and at the minimum, it’s quite good and has great promise. However, I’m only now at the point of exploring the set-up options, which provides a good deal of latitude for the final sound that one can obtain. There are user selectable options that pertain to the amount of gain, global feedback, and choice of input impedance (hiZ vs lowZ) as well as a selection of bandwidth limiting filters. And they all matter.
Although I haven’t figured out exactly where I stand on some of these settings, it’s worth recalling what many have said is a hallmark of CH amps, which is namely, that they do not sound either tube-like or SS. I respectfully disagree. They do in fact have an uncanny ability to sound like either, depending on the settings that are chosen! If you choose zero global feedback, they sound like some of the most remarkable tube amplifiers you can imagine. Liquid, grain-free midrange with layering and outstanding imaging are its hallmark. However, if you are the sort of person who relishes bass that knocks you down when the appropriate material is played, you will probably be motivated to add a modest amount of global feedback which is adjustable in 1% increments between zero and 100. Adding a modest amount of global feedback increases bass “grip” as CH calls it in their manual. They ain’t kidding. Whatever you wish to cal lit, it is reminiscent of the sort of huge damping factor that allows powerful bass to be handled masterfully as is often the case for a SS design. At first, this seems like an unusual approach for dialing in the best sound from a SOA uber amp. Honestly, I’m still warming up to the idea that this sort of Burger King “have it your way” approach to voicing the amps’ sound is ideal, but it definitely has advantages since this sort of flexibility will allow a wide variety of users and systems to be most effectively optimized.
However, there’s a part of me that says “Ok, I’ve set the global feedback to the lowest value I can live with for my kind of bass (about 15%), but damn, how do I get back the extra sauce I’ve lost in the mids and highs when feedback was set to 0%?" And that is the quandry. I want to make it clear that with the gain set to 15%, the sound is still excellent. However, play a solo piano and listen to the difference without any feedback vs modest feedback. The difference in purity of tone is discernable; very slight, but it’s there. I guess the moral of the story is there is no free lunch in designing electronics of this caliber. Every engineering and circuity decision has consequences. What CH has done is give you a wide latitude to configure the amp in the way that best suits your needs. It's hard to believe you won't be pleased with whatever setting choices you make.
One final comment about power. This amp has it and has it in spades. I watched the display read 600-700 watts routinely when big music is being played at concert hall levels, and with momentary peaks that exceed 1 KW! Nobody, and I mean nobody, will find these babies short of power. And from what I can tell, they are more like the JC1+ which can be pushed hard effortlessly without blowing up, unlike the Soulution 701’s which have a great affinity for trans-Atlantic air freight to Switzerland by blowing up unexpectedly. (You would think they like to collect frequent flyer miles).
That’s about all I can say for now. I have a bit of additional break-in and tweaking to do before enjoying the amps to their fullest, along with picking some more nits no doubt! At this point, I’m not using the JL subs with the Alexx V while the amp continues to break in, but since the gain of CH 10 is different than the JC1+ (24dB vs 29dB), the subs will have to be re-dialed in when the time comes. Until more definitive amp settings and system voicing is completed, I have every expectation that the amps will continue to impress at a very high level.
but if you have some trouble and misanderstanding with this amp,you can always sent to me,
Some of us have more than one source. I need a preamp to switch between my three sources and control volume, balance and phase if needed. I also use the tape out of the preamp for a headphone amp. My preamp is needed and used.
Yes, but just for the benefit of these conveniences we can have a passive costing a few hundred usd - no need for a Spectral DMC30SS!
LOL! Toe stubbers, finger crushers, room heaters and neighborhood brownout modules.
Some philes have 'summer' amplifiers and 'winter' amplifiers. I guess my Wavac is the winter amplifier, usually enters the fray with colder nights by October..
Some philes have 'summer' amplifiers and 'winter' amplifiers. I guess my Wavac is the winter amplifier, usually enters the fray with colder nights by October..
Sounding great and not adding anything to the signal are two different things. The first is plausible the second nearly impossible.
If only one source, get a Soulution 560 or 760 with Leedh processing and go direct to amp.
A good Pre amp is the cornerstone of a system imo.Without it , the order in the sound is gone ( it sounds lean /chaotic /lacks bass definition )
Nice CH amps ,and it seems the speakers need the power / juice
Yes but this is the " Whats best forum " .
I can only assume that if you buy a a pair of CH M10 amps you aim for the best
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Here’s a two week update on the CH M10s. The issue is which M10 to report on. In its purest form, without the addition of any global feedback, the M10 is in many ways, and this is key-only on some material, perhaps the finest amplifier I have heard. The definition, musicality, sound staging, and tonal rightness are all superb and easily among the best available. The amplifier has a natural sound quality that is neither yin or yang but is rather, beautifully balanced. This is most welcome particularly on classical music where the timbre of individual instruments is often simply ravishing. The same is true for female vocals. But there’s a catch. All is not without some serious remorse. The amp’s Achilles heel is low frequency material, particularly below 80 Hz. Here, without the addition of some modest global feedback, bass performance is surprisingly below average at best. For the life of me I do not understand how anyone can think this a good bass amplifier (forget about great). It is not. To compare its performance in the bass range (again, an important qualifier) to the Parasound JC1+ is frankly an embarrassment. The JC1+ is so vastly superior (it is the best bass amplifier I have ever heard, and that includes the esteemed Soulution 701) that this sort of comparison is a sonic equivalent of “the king has no clothes” when describing the M10. The bass, again, without global feedback, leaves me thinking “can’t everyone plainly see (or in this case, hear) the king is naked”? Even on classical music, the lower bass register, whether it is the piano left hand, male basso or baritone, or the almighty lower brass are just, well, wrong. There is no sense of high definition and impact to the low frequencies on a “zero global feedback” M10. The bass frequencies are softer than they are in real life and are therefore unimpressive. It’s not an issue of balance or weight or extension, but rather an issue of definition and hence dynamic impact, as I hear it. But the rest of the range? Very impressive and even wonderous. (While no two amps sound the same, my limited audio memory brings to mind that the M10 resembles the sort of sound Jeff Rowland’s amps are known for; eminently musical and rewarding, but even more so).
So knowing that this liability in the bass is something that is a concern, is there a path forward for me with the M10? Well, yes, but it’s sort of cheating in a way and brings me to discuss the “other” M10- the one with global feedback applied. Recall that I am running the Alexx V full range and supplementing with the JL Gotham subs using a second pair of preamp outputs. I’m now able to crossover the subs at about 28Hz (rather than 25Hz) and although this doesn’t seem like much, it now allows for a blended system sound whereby the liabilities of the CH 10 in the 20-40 Hz range are now effectively masked by the sub’s contribution. It’s sort of a parlor trick if you will, but a discerning listener can tell there is something to be desired in the remaining bass range up through 40-80Hz as the sub contribution is nominal in that range. What to do? The answer is obvious. Turn up the global feedback and try to improve the overall bass performance so that it is not only tolerable (or put another way, as the M10 manual says, add global feedback to add bass "grip"), but use a low enough amount of global feedback so that it does not impair the magic of the M10 in the rest of the audio range. Have I been successful? In a word, yes, more or less. I’m certainly glad that CH allows for adjustment of global feedback in 1% increments. Without it, this exercise would be impossible, as small differences translate quickly into easily heard satisfactory and unsatisfactory value settings. For me, I have settled on 14%. In doing so, I can live with the bass combo provided by the Alexx V and the JL Gothams. But more importantly, the rest of the range, which not quite at the level of “incredible” that the M10 provides without global feedback, is still pretty damn fine. Here, it should be said, the JC1+ is not its equal, even with some modest global feedback applied to the M10.
Taken together, the Alexx V, the JL subs set to ~28Hz, and a global feedback setting of 14% provided some of the most exquisite listening I have yet to hear from my system. I was listening to one of my “go-to” piano recordings, the incredible dual piano Salzberg album by Martha Argerich and Nelson Freire and was simply mesmerized by the pianos, not only sounding more authentic than I have ever heard them before, but with spatial localization of the two pianos and their individual registers that was not previously realized.
This highlights but one aspect of what the M10 is capable of doing. Although it was sonically not quite the equal (particularly for the upper registers) as to using zero global feedback, my settings nonetheless afforded a genuinely satisfying result for the overall blended Alexx V/Gotham system. This may be a comment out of left field but through the M10, the tonal density of the piano as well as many other instruments including voice is very reminiscent to that which I hear as a hallmark of the Zanden 1200Mk3 phono stage (which for me, is high praise indeed).
Equally important, is that the sound of the system when playing big music, especially rock, world or music with deep bass rich transients, is also now very satisfactory, although there will always be a part of me that understands that a small bass range between what the Gothams cover and what the M10’s provide on the Alexx V, will always be bettered by the JC1+. It is why an adage such as “perfect is the enemy of good” is as relevant now as ever. I will always wish that the M10 had bass that was able to shine when the global feedback was set at 8%, which is where I think it becomes darned close to sounding like no global feedback at all. But that just isn’t going to happen so for now 14% is where it needs to be for best overall sound, which honestly, ain’t too shabby.
What you just read is a more lengthy explanation for describing what Mad Floyd (Ian) said far more concisely in an earlier post. The M10 is really 2 amplifiers. Turn off global feedback and its tube like qualities will surely impress. Add global feedback, and the potential to sound more like a SS amp occurs with better bass at the slight expense of the rest of the range. The trick is to reach a balance in one’s system that enables their use in the manner best suited for a particular listener and their system. Will my current configuration and their results ultimately translate into satisfactory long term listening? I certainly hope so. But for the first time since I’ve received them two weeks ago and largely broken in, I now think so.
I guess I’ll find out. Stay tuned….!
So knowing that this liability in the bass is something that is a concern, is there a path forward for me with the M10? Well, yes, but it’s sort of cheating in a way and brings me to discuss the “other” M10- the one with global feedback applied. Recall that I am running the Alexx V full range and supplementing with the JL Gotham subs using a second pair of preamp outputs. I’m now able to crossover the subs at about 28Hz (rather than 25Hz) and although this doesn’t seem like much, it now allows for a blended system sound whereby the liabilities of the CH 10 in the 20-40 Hz range are now effectively masked by the sub’s contribution. It’s sort of a parlor trick if you will, but a discerning listener can tell there is something to be desired in the remaining bass range up through 40-80Hz as the sub contribution is nominal in that range. What to do? The answer is obvious. Turn up the global feedback and try to improve the overall bass performance so that it is not only tolerable (or put another way, as the M10 manual says, add global feedback to add bass "grip"), but use a low enough amount of global feedback so that it does not impair the magic of the M10 in the rest of the audio range. Have I been successful? In a word, yes, more or less. I’m certainly glad that CH allows for adjustment of global feedback in 1% increments. Without it, this exercise would be impossible, as small differences translate quickly into easily heard satisfactory and unsatisfactory value settings. For me, I have settled on 14%. In doing so, I can live with the bass combo provided by the Alexx V and the JL Gothams. But more importantly, the rest of the range, which not quite at the level of “incredible” that the M10 provides without global feedback, is still pretty damn fine. Here, it should be said, the JC1+ is not its equal, even with some modest global feedback applied to the M10.
Taken together, the Alexx V, the JL subs set to ~28Hz, and a global feedback setting of 14% provided some of the most exquisite listening I have yet to hear from my system. I was listening to one of my “go-to” piano recordings, the incredible dual piano Salzberg album by Martha Argerich and Nelson Freire and was simply mesmerized by the pianos, not only sounding more authentic than I have ever heard them before, but with spatial localization of the two pianos and their individual registers that was not previously realized.
This highlights but one aspect of what the M10 is capable of doing. Although it was sonically not quite the equal (particularly for the upper registers) as to using zero global feedback, my settings nonetheless afforded a genuinely satisfying result for the overall blended Alexx V/Gotham system. This may be a comment out of left field but through the M10, the tonal density of the piano as well as many other instruments including voice is very reminiscent to that which I hear as a hallmark of the Zanden 1200Mk3 phono stage (which for me, is high praise indeed).
Equally important, is that the sound of the system when playing big music, especially rock, world or music with deep bass rich transients, is also now very satisfactory, although there will always be a part of me that understands that a small bass range between what the Gothams cover and what the M10’s provide on the Alexx V, will always be bettered by the JC1+. It is why an adage such as “perfect is the enemy of good” is as relevant now as ever. I will always wish that the M10 had bass that was able to shine when the global feedback was set at 8%, which is where I think it becomes darned close to sounding like no global feedback at all. But that just isn’t going to happen so for now 14% is where it needs to be for best overall sound, which honestly, ain’t too shabby.
What you just read is a more lengthy explanation for describing what Mad Floyd (Ian) said far more concisely in an earlier post. The M10 is really 2 amplifiers. Turn off global feedback and its tube like qualities will surely impress. Add global feedback, and the potential to sound more like a SS amp occurs with better bass at the slight expense of the rest of the range. The trick is to reach a balance in one’s system that enables their use in the manner best suited for a particular listener and their system. Will my current configuration and their results ultimately translate into satisfactory long term listening? I certainly hope so. But for the first time since I’ve received them two weeks ago and largely broken in, I now think so.
I guess I’ll find out. Stay tuned….!
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Congrats, Marty. If you are defining the experience of the CH M10 SOLID STATE amps by using the Zanden 1200 Phono stage, you have indeed found what could be one of this generation's grails. Uniquely, the most artfully designed SS is most often being acquired by dyed in the wool tube fans (including SET) who are finding the rarified air of those qualities in SS designs which then go further by bringing to bear the innate strengths well known in SS which is endless reserves of power, massive dynamic swings combined with microdynamic nuances that arise out of practically bottomless, low noise floors.
On a separate note, I find it most intriguing that perhaps one of the most meticulous 'scientific-approach-to-listening' audiophiles (ie, you) also finds the Parasound JC1+ to be unbeatable in bass...which is [i am pretty sure] the very amp David Wilson used to use in his own reference system with the big Thors...when he could EASILY have used 3 VTLs or 3 D'Agostinos. (At least, that is what I have read from visitors to his home.)
Look forward to reading more...how many hours do you have on the CH M10s? On our end, we clock it by day on a post-it...now at over 360 hours on the Robert Koda K160s...which as an owner of Zanden for the last 13 years straight...I can say is the ultimate expression in my experience in amplification. But until we hit 450-500 hours, I am told more is yet to come from 2 owners who have been ahead of us by around 6-10 months.
Would love to hear the CH 10 series. CH is of the key names that continue to intrigue me as an audiophile even if I have found a long-term home (which is saying something for someone who was CJ for 21 years and Gryphon for 11 before changing both up for Robert Koda in the last 12 months).
Do please continue to keep posting...always makes for great reading!
On a separate note, I find it most intriguing that perhaps one of the most meticulous 'scientific-approach-to-listening' audiophiles (ie, you) also finds the Parasound JC1+ to be unbeatable in bass...which is [i am pretty sure] the very amp David Wilson used to use in his own reference system with the big Thors...when he could EASILY have used 3 VTLs or 3 D'Agostinos. (At least, that is what I have read from visitors to his home.)
Look forward to reading more...how many hours do you have on the CH M10s? On our end, we clock it by day on a post-it...now at over 360 hours on the Robert Koda K160s...which as an owner of Zanden for the last 13 years straight...I can say is the ultimate expression in my experience in amplification. But until we hit 450-500 hours, I am told more is yet to come from 2 owners who have been ahead of us by around 6-10 months.
Would love to hear the CH 10 series. CH is of the key names that continue to intrigue me as an audiophile even if I have found a long-term home (which is saying something for someone who was CJ for 21 years and Gryphon for 11 before changing both up for Robert Koda in the last 12 months).
Do please continue to keep posting...always makes for great reading!
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