Alexx V arrive in NJ

[DasguteOhr]

Absolutely. This is not a room placement issue. This is about an amp with lackluster bass in the extreme (with zero global feedback) as opposed to a phenomenal bass amp (JC1+) although in all fairness we don’t know how much global or local feedback is used in that design.

You have go to diyaudio register write a message to John Curl , ask him nicely
and you have your global feedback of your JC 1+. He posted the JC 1+Shematics there

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[LL21]

That should be an unforgettable day for you. BTW have you heard much of Brian Rives of Pinewood audio, just wondering if hes still around?

We shall see...i expect it will be great. But we've been fortunate to have some pretty sensational days...Genesis Ones and Rockport Arrakis come to mind!

 

[andromedaaudio]

We shall see...i expect it will be great. But we've been fortunate to have some pretty sensational days...Genesis Ones and Rockport Arrakis come to mind!

haha , if you want those days somewhat revived i m afraid they will need to install the accompanying subs as well for your demo
For some real M B ! M stands for membrane surface B for bandwith

 

[LL21]

haha , if you want those days somewhat revived i m afraid they will need to install the accompanying subs as well for your demo

Agree! They actually have a number of subs they also want to demo...I am hoping Subsonic is one of them! We shall see.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I find very strange this bass problem.

In my system now the bass of my speaker Montagna is perfect with my M1.

In the system of my friend with CH and Wilson Alexandria,after some improvment in cables and second X1 for P1,rack,ec,ecc, the bass with A1 mono with Wilson Alexandria is very very good,fast deep,controlled.

I listen in CH room L10,M 10 stereo and Alumine 5 and i founded very good bass,seems perfect,full,fast,deep,controlled.
So i dont understand Marty problem
To understand better i suggest to try L1 preamp and another phono.

If problem is same with phono and digital,is not a phono problem
Or could be Soulution preamp has magic midhigh sound with M 10 but bass is not a good match

Dear Gian,

Perhaps it's simply a matter that each of our pairs of ears are acutely sensitive to different things. Marty, has the patience and the ear sensitivity and acumen to hear differences between AC outlets that I am confident I would not be able to discern.

I also know that I am not particularly adept at perceiving the ambient sonic contours of the dimensions of a recording venue.

On the other hand I believe that I am good at detecting frequency response anomalies. I also believe I am good at detecting channel imbalance (as evidenced by noticing correctly channel imbalances of as little as .2dB at least three different times).

I am confident that if I were in Marty's room listening to his system I would not hear what he is talking about with the M10's feedback set at 14 versus 15.

Please understand, Gian, that this is in no way whatsoever any kind of back-handed criticism of your hearing abilities. I am simply suggesting that we all do not hear everything exactly the same way, and that our respective pairs of ears are not equally sensitive to all sonic characteristics.

When it comes time to position my speakers in my listening room, I am going to solve for what I think is the right sonic equation that I can hear. But then I am going to have come over my friends who I know are better than I am at discerning the ambient sonic contours of sound staging for final positioning. This is just yet another way of me trying to suggest that different people hear things differently, and that different people sometimes hear things that other people do not hear.

(Of course different people will prefer speakers in different positions. In my case, I would sacrifice the discernability of recording venue soundstage dimensions in favor of a greater sense of depth, because that is one of the sonic attributes for which I value planar dipole speakers most. So just because friends would position speakers differently than I would position them doesn't mean I am going to leave the speakers where they like them!)

 

[microstrip]

One would think that one wouldn’t have to make so many changes with a $176k pair of mono blocks in order to achieve great bass performance if the same was accomplished with a significantly less expensive amp.

I feel Marty’s frustration.

Sound quality aspects are always a compromise as they are exclusive - it is great to have some adust-ability, but there are limits. I once hosted a Constellation Audio Virgo III / Centaur complete set with the XLF . Everything else I own sounds soft in the bass compared with it. But overall I preferred the Siegfried II in my system and room. Perhaps the Altair/ Hercules would change my mind ...

BTW, I do not read frustration in Marty posts - IMHO he is just telling us of his journey, that is still going on.

 

[marty]

Wow, what a story!

What does your dealer have to say about this?

I’m also curious what you didn’t like about the JC1s that prompted the switch.

May I ask what the M10s are sitting on and whether you are using the spikes or not?

I’m not sure what type of bass you’re looking for but I can say that my experience has been that I can transform the bass performance without touching the global feedback dial. I guess it might depend on whether your talking about the volume of bass or quality.

I have recently experienced amazing upgrades to bass performance using HRS products, specifically M3X2 platforms equipped with G7 footers and Nimbus footers between the amps and platforms. Obviously I have different speakers and preamp but I’m bewildered at the notion that the quality of the bass is sub par. You have not mentioned which gain setting you are using and since that effects bass performance I’m curious what your experience has been there.

The bass articulation I hear in my system is excellent.

The dealer thinks I've lost my mind. (This may be true!)
The amps are in another room (9' speaker cables go through the wall) so whatever they are on shouldn't matter. However it's on the same granite platform the JC1+ was on.
Th JC1+ is excellent. However, remember I came to it after getting rid of the volatile Soulution 701's. When that occurred, it was easy to notice a very slight loss of refinement, definition and spatial properties of the mids and highs compared to the Soulutions. Hence the purchase of the M10s was made in the hope of finding that "last bit more", as misguided audiophiles are want to do. Another classic case of "perfect is the enemy of good" yet again.

 

[microstrip]

There is no level of feedback that will do that. The JC1+ bass is in a class by itself (and the rest of the range isn't too far behind the M10). The greatest difference between the amps is not the sound. It's the value proposition.

Do you have data on the damping factor of the M10 versus feedback ratio?

 

[andromedaaudio]

BTW, I do not read frustration in Marty posts - IMHO he is just telling us of his journey, that is still going on.

I dont agree on that , a 55 KG audio unit with a 78 kg power supply ( caps transformers ) per channel should control those woofers like a whip .
Its CH ultimate product power amp , they demonstrate in their factory with magico among others , some which are not always an easy load .
Something doesnt add up here and there must be a solution for this.
They should be contacted as they know exactly what their amps can or cannot do on certain loads
.

 

[marty]

Do you have data on the damping factor of the M10 versus feedback ratio?

Excellent question!!
I do not know but I'd sure like to know.

 

[microstrip]

I dont agree on that , a 55 KG audio unit with a 78 kg power supply ( caps transformers ) per channel should control those woofers like a whip .
Its CH ultimate product power amp , they demonstrate in their factory with magico among others , some which are not always an easy load .
Something doesnt add up here and there must be a solution for this.
They should be contacted as they know exactly what their amps can or cannot do on certain loads
.

Although we have very limited information, it seems that with global feedback the M10 is able to successfully control the bass of of the AlexV. As far as I remember the JC 1+ has global feedback.

 

[dcathro]

The amps are in another room (9' speaker cables go through the wall) so whatever they are on shouldn't matter. However it's on the same granite platform the JC1+ was on.

I would still experiment with siting of the amplifiers. induced noise from the loudspeakers is just one form of noise, there is also the noise from the internal transformers, capacitors, etc.

The Jc1+ might have worked well on the granite platform, while the M10 might be optimum with a different arrangement. Experimentation costs nothing but a little time - although I realise those things are a little heavy .

Good luck!

 

[marty]

BTW, I do not read frustration in Marty posts - IMHO he is just telling us of his journey, that is still going on.

Francisco, thanks for that correct perspective. The products we are discussing are all excellent products. However there are differences and the issue is trying to determine what works best for me in my system. For example, no other amp I know of allows the sort of incremental fine adjustment of global feedback in 1% increments. CH obviously chose to do this with the M10 for a reason. It allows for remarkable flexibility which I'm sure some users will welcome. I'm still figuring it out. I wouldn't use the word frustration as opposed to fine tuning, which requires patience, continued observations and re-assessment. It's all part for the hobby for many of us.

 

[Maril555]

The dealer thinks I've lost my mind. (This may be true!)
The amps are in another room (9' speaker cables go through the wall) so whatever they are on shouldn't matter. However it's on the same granite platform the JC1+ was on.
Th JC1+ is excellent. However, remember I came to it after getting rid of the volatile Soulution 701's. When that occurred, it was easy to notice a very slight loss of refinement, definition and spatial properties of the mids and highs compared to the Soulutions. Hence the purchase of the M10s was made in the hope of finding that "last bit more", as misguided audiophiles are want to do. Another classic case of "perfect is the enemy of good" yet again.

If I may to suggest,
you could try an active x-over to relieve the amps of the difficult duty to drive the speakers below let’s say 80 Hz.
This is what a JL subs designer recommends doing with their subs anyway.
I’ve been using Pass Labs XVR-1
Just a thought. If it works, the problem solved for very little (vs. Selling amps, or bi-amping) $$

 

[andromedaaudio]

Although we have very limited information, it seems that with global feedback the M10 is able to successfully control the bass of of the AlexV. As far as I remember the JC 1+ has global feedback.

Yes , some info on the dampening factor should be good .
But remember these amps are in the big Boulder price range .
Usually such behemoths are designed to drive the most difficult of loads
By adding an enormous power supply to drive 1 ohm loads / 80 db eff (stuff like that ).
Iow to take care off the whole customer transducer range by controlling the most difficult of speaker designs

 

[LL21]

Sound quality aspects are always a compromise as they are exclusive - it is great to have some adust-ability, but there are limits. I once hosted a Constellation Audio Virgo III / Centaur complete set with the XLF . Everything else I own sounds soft in the bass compared with it. But overall I preferred the Siegfried II in my system and room. Perhaps the Altair/ Hercules would change my mind ...

BTW, I do not read frustration in Marty posts - IMHO he is just telling us of his journey, that is still going on.

I would be most interested to hear what you think of the Altair/Hercules in your system. I know ZERO about tech in audio...but the description of the Constellation Hercules share some of the description of the Robert Koda K160 monos. Absolute Sounds distributes both, so at some point I will ask them their opinion of how the 2 amps compare on Wilson (which, as you know well, they also distribute).

 

[MadFloyd]

The dealer thinks I've lost my mind. (This may be true!)
The amps are in another room (9' speaker cables go through the wall) so whatever they are on shouldn't matter. However it's on the same granite platform the JC1+ was on.
Th JC1+ is excellent. However, remember I came to it after getting rid of the volatile Soulution 701's. When that occurred, it was easy to notice a very slight loss of refinement, definition and spatial properties of the mids and highs compared to the Soulutions. Hence the purchase of the M10s was made in the hope of finding that "last bit more", as misguided audiophiles are want to do. Another classic case of "perfect is the enemy of good" yet again.

You keep avoiding my gain question.

 

[microstrip]

Yes , some info on the dampening factor should be good .
But remember these amps are in the big Boulder price range .
Usually such behemoths are designed to drive the most difficult of loads
By adding an enormous power supply to drive 1 ohm loads / 80 db eff (stuff like that ).
Iow to take care off the whole customer transducer range by controlling the most difficult of speaker designs

I think you are missing that when people get the M10 they do not get an amplifier - they get 100 amplifiers, each sounding different. Some of them will have absolute control of the AlexV bass, others not so much, it seems.

My humble Siegfried II´s have 8 modes of operation - 4 feedback levels, triode and pentode mode. I would love to have one mode with best of each of them, but it is not possible and for the XLF I prefer the pentode, middle feedback level as a general mode. But sometimes I indulge in the low feedback triode mode for a couple of recordings.

 

[KeithR]

Fremer found <20% neg feedback “soggy” on the Alexx. Also, the M1.1 measurements show less than 4 ohms weren’t ideal. I'm just speculating of course - the M10 could be different.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Some of them will have absolute control of the AlexV bass, others not so much, it seems.

It seems that that is not even the case .
There should be at least 1 setting that gives as much bass control as the JC + , but with a purer / cleaner sound if thats not the case something is wrong here for this kind of $$$
If the JC + CH are not much different sound wise its not nesscessary to even buy a CH off course .
In that case marty better call J tinn to get he MM7 s and put some real pressure in that room