Aesthetix Io Users Group
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Tubes for the Io...
Since I am quite happy with the selected Philips Herleen 12ax7 NOS I bought for the first gain stage some months ago, I have asked the seller for two more pairs of NOS tubes, for the output buffer - V7 should have type 6922, V8 should have 6SN7 (see post #542).
The seller says he has a good pair of Philips (Heerlen factory) E88CC and a pair of RCA 6SN7GTB.
Two questions:
Have anyone tried these, in the Io? Or, generally, changing to NOS in the output buffer - is it worth it?
Are these the correct type? E88CC seems to be another name for 6922, so it should be ok. 6SN7 using 6SN7GTB - is probably ok also, but I am not sure.
Since I am quite happy with the selected Philips Herleen 12ax7 NOS I bought for the first gain stage some months ago, I have asked the seller for two more pairs of NOS tubes, for the output buffer - V7 should have type 6922, V8 should have 6SN7 (see post #542).
The seller says he has a good pair of Philips (Heerlen factory) E88CC and a pair of RCA 6SN7GTB.
Two questions:
Have anyone tried these, in the Io? Or, generally, changing to NOS in the output buffer - is it worth it?
Are these the correct type? E88CC seems to be another name for 6922, so it should be ok. 6SN7 using 6SN7GTB - is probably ok also, but I am not sure.
| Output buffer | V7 | 6922 | Buffer (no gain in V7) | ||
| V8 | 6SN7 |
OGH - it has been a long time since I rolled and compared tubes in the Io. From my experimentation, I found the Telefunken 6922 equivalents and variants were most appealing to my tastes. The European tubes use ECC88 or E88CC or 7308. There is also the Tele CCa which is really a great tube. You can also try the less expensive PCC88 (confirm with Aesthetix) since it is basically the same tube with a 7 volt heater.
The 6SN7's did not seem to impart much, if any, character to the overall sound. I do prefer the 5692 version of the 6SN7 since it is ruggedized (extra support rods).
In my Io, I have used Tele CCa and RCA 5692 combo for years. Sounds great (to my ears).
I also use the the RCA 5692 in my Io and have been for many years. A rock solid neutral performer in that position. Lasts for years, Although just recently I had to replace one for a hum..... suspected most other tubes because of the robustness of the RCA ... in the end it was the 5692 ... it must of lasted 6 years.
For the 6922 type I elected to use a USN CEP 7308 , I like that tube in this position as the Tele ECC88 is more stark in my system. The PQ are equivalent to this military tube in my estimation performance wise .
For all other positions Telefunken 12AX7 /ECC83 smooth plates triple noise tested and matched with a maximatcher, VTV characterizer and Amplitrex.
Or , just order from Aesthetix and relax. ..... YMMV
Revisiting Io direct to the amp(s):
Due to problems (one channel silent) in my Einstein The tube mk2 preamp, I have now connected the Io as "stand alone" preamp in my system. This works fine, and gives me the occasion to re-investigate the issue of connecting the Io direkt into the amp, or indirect, through a preamp.
My initial reaction is this:
Indeed, I miss the more "embodied, muscular" performance, with the Einstein in the chain. On the other hand, I like the "detailed" direct presentation from the Io. The jury is out. Maybe the type of music has a role. I like Charles Lloyd - Tone poem, direct through the Io, but was less impressed by World Party - Bang. So maybe, with the Io alone, jazz sounds more OK than rock music.
Due to problems (one channel silent) in my Einstein The tube mk2 preamp, I have now connected the Io as "stand alone" preamp in my system. This works fine, and gives me the occasion to re-investigate the issue of connecting the Io direkt into the amp, or indirect, through a preamp.
My initial reaction is this:
Indeed, I miss the more "embodied, muscular" performance, with the Einstein in the chain. On the other hand, I like the "detailed" direct presentation from the Io. The jury is out. Maybe the type of music has a role. I like Charles Lloyd - Tone poem, direct through the Io, but was less impressed by World Party - Bang. So maybe, with the Io alone, jazz sounds more OK than rock music.
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looks like my Io Eclipse is done, burning in and power cycling right now, and headed my way early next week. i'll get to have an Io Octoberfest. 
switched to 120v/60hz, new updated caps, 2nd phono input added, new transformers, new V1 and V2 tubes (no, not sure which ones....Jim said they were very quiet).....and passed all the tests.
switched to 120v/60hz, new updated caps, 2nd phono input added, new transformers, new V1 and V2 tubes (no, not sure which ones....Jim said they were very quiet
).....and passed all the tests.
looks like my Io Eclipse is done, burning in and power cycling right now, and headed my way early next week. i'll get to have an Io Octoberfest.
switched to 120v/60hz, new updated caps, 2nd phono input added, new transformers, new V1 and V2 tubes (no, not sure which ones....Jim said they were very quiet
Switched? Did you buy the modded one from the UK?
not to my knowledge. it was a 6 year old 220v/50hz unit from a Florida dealer who sold it for their local customer on consignment. i was told that the customer had moved from central Europe (Austria?) to Florida and bought another phono from that dealer. no mention from Aesthetix about any special mods, in fact they have told me it's now exactly like a brand new version (updated to the latest caps and had the same cosmetics) they would sell right now for what that's worth.
the main issue for me was the voltage change to 120v/60hz. which required new transformers.
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Hope this works well, Mike!
I am testing 2 Philips Herleen 6922 plus 2 RCA 6sn7gtb in the Io, with the signal going direct to the MA1 amps (since my preamp is on repair). Interesting...and certainly enjoyable.
I am testing 2 Philips Herleen 6922 plus 2 RCA 6sn7gtb in the Io, with the signal going direct to the MA1 amps (since my preamp is on repair). Interesting...and certainly enjoyable.
Testing digital vs analog, again...
Good idea to do this, while my preamp is away. The "pure" signal from the Io, to the amps. I can do this, since my Io has volume controls and aux plus phono input.
Results:
The Io sounds good from the Aux input - which I use for digital. I have noticed this before, and it is confirmed, now. I wouldn't say that it vipes out the problems of digital. But it sounds quite good. I note that, the tonal character is often warmer and more bass-heavy, than from my analog source (LP playback of the same cut). This is somewhat curious. I use a Lyra Atlas cart, and reviews don't argue that it is "lean", but rather, "precise". Yet on some cuts it does sound more lean, than what I hear from digital (streaming from Qobuz). Note, there are method problems here, often the streaming is remastered, etc, from what I have on LP.
Second main result: even though the digital input sounds good, through the Io direct, it is no question, who is the master. Vinyl rules. Still. Even though my Teac NT-505 is now house-warm, and sounds good. I have wondered why, and listened more. Maybe it is just me, being conditioned to "vinyl sound"? Plus old man's ears? But I dont think so. Listening notes - LP playing means my wife puts her phone away - we get more of the total sound, the "klang" in the music, a larger sound picture, more 3d dimensional = are more engaged. And although the Atlas may not play the lowest bass as well as (some) digital, it sounds more coherent. Many digital remasters have additional defects, like lack of ambient sound (pro-tooled away - ?). The Atlas is clearly superior regarding voice, female voice especially. Even if the "klang" is a bit on the lean side. My Einstein preamp corrects this. A stepup for the MC might do the job also, but Glenn at A has argued against this - the "pure" tube gain is a major point with the Io. I agree.
Good idea to do this, while my preamp is away. The "pure" signal from the Io, to the amps. I can do this, since my Io has volume controls and aux plus phono input.
Results:
The Io sounds good from the Aux input - which I use for digital. I have noticed this before, and it is confirmed, now. I wouldn't say that it vipes out the problems of digital. But it sounds quite good. I note that, the tonal character is often warmer and more bass-heavy, than from my analog source (LP playback of the same cut). This is somewhat curious. I use a Lyra Atlas cart, and reviews don't argue that it is "lean", but rather, "precise". Yet on some cuts it does sound more lean, than what I hear from digital (streaming from Qobuz). Note, there are method problems here, often the streaming is remastered, etc, from what I have on LP.
Second main result: even though the digital input sounds good, through the Io direct, it is no question, who is the master. Vinyl rules. Still. Even though my Teac NT-505 is now house-warm, and sounds good. I have wondered why, and listened more. Maybe it is just me, being conditioned to "vinyl sound"? Plus old man's ears? But I dont think so. Listening notes - LP playing means my wife puts her phone away - we get more of the total sound, the "klang" in the music, a larger sound picture, more 3d dimensional = are more engaged. And although the Atlas may not play the lowest bass as well as (some) digital, it sounds more coherent. Many digital remasters have additional defects, like lack of ambient sound (pro-tooled away - ?). The Atlas is clearly superior regarding voice, female voice especially. Even if the "klang" is a bit on the lean side. My Einstein preamp corrects this. A stepup for the MC might do the job also, but Glenn at A has argued against this - the "pure" tube gain is a major point with the Io. I agree.
I have limited experience with the Atlas but I have heard one make fantastic bass ( of course this was just one system ). Maybe someone that has listened to the Atlas long-term and on multiple arms can weigh in. I wonder if the arm/cart synergy could play in here ?
I would not call Lyra Atlas deficient in the bass - far from it. My Atlas (made in 2018) has performed excellently and trouble-free, so far. The Io likes a 0.5 mv (or more) cart. The effect of taking the Einstein preamp out of the chain is somewhat similar to running a lower output cart. It lacks a bit of body or muscle (sorry for diffuse terms). With the Einstein in the chain, music more easily 'grips' our 50m2 living room. There is a minus also, a bit less purity than with the Io direct to the amps (not much though) and a slight s-state edge to the sound that I suspect come from the s-state power supplies in the Einstein. So lets say, in my case, 70 percent plus, 30 percent minus. I know opinions are divided, on this issue - some prefer the Io direct. I know that Glenn at Aesthetix has preferred using the Io together with a preamp (preferably their top of the line Callisto), but I am not exactly sure why this sounds better. Btw, the Atlas is mounted on a SME V arm, on a Hanss T30 player. No lack of bass and authority, here.
Nice,looks like my Io Eclipse is done, burning in and power cycling right now, and headed my way early next week. i'll get to have an Io Octoberfest.
switched to 120v/60hz, new updated caps, 2nd phono input added, new transformers, new V1 and V2 tubes (no, not sure which ones....Jim said they were very quiet
I am sure as a small company Aesthetix has its own challenges. Never an excuse for lack of communication though. JW and GB have always taken my calls and service has been excellent.
I hope your adventure will pay off in terms of another unique perspective that fits your priorities.
Less is not always more I agree.
However, it is very system dependent. I had a very highly regarded line stage ($30K) here for a go in between the Io and my direct drive amps recently. I lost in resolution and focus and gained some exaggerated impact. Dynamics are not a problem in my system, maybe because I direct drive my speakers with +/- 3.KV and passively bi amp the bottom end <100hz
That same line stage transformed another system to more impact, definition and focus where it was inserted between a very ,very expensive DAC with volume controls. So like all things audio , it depends.
On cartridges, I have used EtnaSL, Koetsu RSP and Jade Platinum and have been an Atlas user for years.( my new lambda is in a box to install after waiting six mos.) Atlas is far from lack of bass impact in my experience. I do believe you're probably better off with high output MC with Io , I also use GFS, keeps things quiet if you're not prepared to work on the tubes.
While low output MC that I use , as above, provide more nuance and delicacy, it is does not swamp the the excitement of a powerful impactful cartridge like the GFS.
Having said that, I spend a lot of time on vetting tubes and get tremendous performance from the Koetsu's and the Etna SL.
Tubes are key and a lot of work with Io ,I am a proponent of active gain an no transformers if you can get the tubes, and cartridge combination correct. Transformers may solve some problems and introduce others, just like any engineering exercise.
Kcin - My experience also, although complex repairs can take time, very good service.
Mike - after I got the Io back from A, with a partial Eclipse upgrade plus another power supply, I was actually so-so in some of the period running it in. Was it like after 40 hours, vocals sounded a bit like Mickey Mouse? Cant quite remember, now, but I think it was 80-100 hours before I started to think: "this is clearly better, I won't look back". Comparing to my former version, mk2 with one power supply.
Mike - after I got the Io back from A, with a partial Eclipse upgrade plus another power supply, I was actually so-so in some of the period running it in. Was it like after 40 hours, vocals sounded a bit like Mickey Mouse? Cant quite remember, now, but I think it was 80-100 hours before I started to think: "this is clearly better, I won't look back". Comparing to my former version, mk2 with one power supply.
thank you. with new transformers, new caps, and new V1 and V2 tubes, my Io Eclipse will need some running in i imagine. good to get a feel for it from you. i will be patient (at least try
......not my strong suit).right now i'm having to seriously figure out where to put those three boxes soon. before i just had to imagine it.
Kcin - gained some exaggerated impact
Very interesting.
Maybe a bit like I hear - with the Einstein. But do I like it? Do I like rice with some soy sauce? Maybe yes. So my judgement is not final.
Here is quick one, a new listening test.
This time, between a new LP, and the same cut, streaming from Qobuz (Teac NT-505 -> Io Aux input).
The track is Robby Krieger: Chunga's revenge, on his new album "The ritual begins at sundown", which I have bought on LP (Great track, and good album).
We test in the living room, my wife and I, switching between the digital and analog version of this track.
We don't quite agree.
My wife Kari says: "it sounds more pure from the LP".
I say, "Yes I agree, but doesn't the lower frequency sound leaner?"
"No not sure about that", she says.
So there you are.
Very interesting.
Maybe a bit like I hear - with the Einstein. But do I like it? Do I like rice with some soy sauce? Maybe yes. So my judgement is not final.
Here is quick one, a new listening test.
This time, between a new LP, and the same cut, streaming from Qobuz (Teac NT-505 -> Io Aux input).
The track is Robby Krieger: Chunga's revenge, on his new album "The ritual begins at sundown", which I have bought on LP (Great track, and good album).
We test in the living room, my wife and I, switching between the digital and analog version of this track.
We don't quite agree.
My wife Kari says: "it sounds more pure from the LP".
I say, "Yes I agree, but doesn't the lower frequency sound leaner?"
"No not sure about that", she says.
So there you are.
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