A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency

[Mgrif104]

“boxes full of dirt, reindeer excrement, and Scandinavian gravel…”

Can we just take a moment to thank @Holmz This is brilliant!

 

[Holmz]

“boxes full of dirt, reindeer excrement, and Scandinavian gravel…”

Can we just take a moment to thank @Holmz This is brilliant!

You’re most welcome.
There are so many reindeer up there, it would be hard not to have it mixed in with the dirt.

We have an excellent TV station here called SBS (“Special Broadcast Services”).
They started out doing a lot of translation and subtitle work ~50 years ago, and in the mornings they have news (imported) from countries around the world in a variety of languages… US PBS is on around 1PM.
It is sort of like PBS mixed with NetFlix, and there are a bevy of Scandinavian and other European TV shows and movies, free to watch/streaming.
And soccer, Tour d France, etc.

Special Broadcasting Service - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The latest TV series we are on is from Finland and called “Reindeer Mafia”, which has a bunch of Hell’s Angel types (mostly on Ski-Doos, with drug running, drinking aquavit, and sitting in saunas.
Seems pretty “honest and transparent” in terms of what I understand of Finland.

Coincidentally enough, after I posted that yesterday, they had shoved the drugs into the reindeer’s mouths in condoms, and then later fed the reindeer laxatives after they crossed the Norway Finland boarder… and the subsequent digging through the excitement in order to recover the condoms/drugs.

The Russian “T-34” movie, was a highlight from last year:

 

[Holmz]

“boxes full of dirt, reindeer excrement, and Scandinavian gravel…”

Can we just take a moment to thank @Holmz This is brilliant!

I noticed in your signature block the Matthew Bond cables.
Those gave me “the allure” and FOMO in a big time way.
I am still considering a pair.
I assume that you like them?

There is an Aussie podcast that is pretty entertaining if you like dry humour.
The Matthew Bond session is worth a listen IMHO.

Matthew Bond & TARA Labs

Podcast Episode · Not An Audiophile · 12/09/2024 · 1h 42m

podcasts.apple.com

It is a pretty good podcast for staying awake on a drive.

 

[Macattack]

The industry of high-end audio chronicles the passion for emotionally-engaging sound, the pursuit of engineering perfection and the love of music. The designers of our components come to audio from many different fields, but each designer wants to fill our ears and our souls with joy from the sound of extraordinarily reproduced music.

We are an unusual industry, comprised of a few relatively large companies, and many small companies. Many high-end audio manufacturers start as one person efforts, literally in their garages.

High-end audio is a very unique hobby-based industry in which manufacturers often are in direct communication with end-users, often through WBF. This post is a request for greater honesty and transparency from manufacturers in this industry.

A manufacturer announces a new product, and the manufacturer's distributors and dealers discuss that product publicly. To the end-user the buzz states explicitly or at least implies that the product appears to be a completely engineered, completely tested and ready for production component.

Hobbyists order the component from dealers and the order payments go up the distribution chain back to the manufacturer. If the manufacturer does not have stock on hand, then these payments are used to produce the next copies of the component. In a small, under-capitalized manufacturer this is fine, because the companies are not large enough to produce a quantity of components and maintain an inventory. This is why in our industry orders often take several weeks or months to fill as the manufacturer literally produces the component to order after receiving payment.

But what if, in reality, the manufacturer uses the first purchaser order payments merely to continue and to complete the design and the testing and the pre-production of the component? I think this is wrong.

If a manufacturer conveys talking points to its distributor and that distributor conveys those talking points to its dealers and its dealers convey those talking points to prospective purchasers, I want those talking points to be scrupulously accurate. I don't want those talking points by the manufacturer -- which then are propagated downstream -- to be merely aspirational. If a product is announced as in existence and ready for purchase then that product should be actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Unfortunately in high-end audio many manufacturers are under-capitalized with inadequate funds for proper testing of new components under development and about to be released. Manufacturers don't have a dozen prototypes which they send out across the world to be tested in situ in many different audio systems comprised of many different components. High-end audio manufacturers are not like Porsche which sends out prototypes across the world to be test driven from the freezing roads of Finland to the desert roads of Saudi Arabia.

This is not the consumers' problem. This is the manufacturer's problem. Low volume manufacturers in this industry should not use early purchasing consumers as the beta testers. In my opinion many components in this industry are too expensive for the manufacturer effectively to be using the first purchasers as the beta testers.

I advocate for complete honesty and transparency from manufacturers. A hobbyist should not have to wait many months or even a year or more for a component to arrive at his/her front door as the product's design and testing and reproduction -- unbeknownst to the purchaser and maybe even unbeknownst to the distributor and to the dealer -- actually is completed.

Manufacturers should not announce product release dates which are not realistic.

Manufacturers should not take payments for products which are not yet actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Manufacturers should not use early-adopting purchasers as beta testers.

Partisan preferences for particular brands and components aside, I hope we all can agree that manufacturers should be scrupulously honest with us hobbyists.

As long as consumers are willing to buy $750,000+ speakers, $500,000+ amplifiers, $350,000+ DACs/servers and $50,000+ 1 meter cables, etc., there is ZERO chance for honesty in this hobby. There is simply too much money in being dishonest.

 

[Rob181]

You’re most welcome.
There are so many reindeer up there, it would be hard not to have it mixed in with the dirt.

We have an excellent TV station here called SBS (“Special Broadcast Services”).
They started out doing a lot of translation and subtitle work ~50 years ago, and in the mornings they have news (imported) from countries around the world in a variety of languages… US PBS is on around 1PM.

In its earlier days - SBS was colloquially known as "Sex Before Sleep" - earnt by showing so called "soft porn" movies late at night. In reality - these movies reflected the times in the Scandinavian countries - not "soft porn" at all - just life. Nothing as exciting as - err - hiding drugs in reindeer then sorting through their droppings to retrieve them

 

[Holmz]

In its earlier days - SBS was colloquially known as "Sex Before Sleep" - earnt by showing so called "soft porn" movies late at night. In reality - these movies reflected the times in the Scandinavian countries - not "soft porn" at all - just life. Nothing as exciting as - err - hiding drugs in reindeer then sorting through their droppings to retrieve them

Where art thou @Rob181 ?

 

[Rob181]

Where art thou @Rob181 ?

Enjoying clear blue skies - 25.6C temp - a gentle NE blowing (hence the temp) - planning this weeks training for the Clarence 100 (a 105kl race down the Clarence River - this will be my 4th consecutive year) - where else - but - Brissie (that'll confuse all the OS members)...

 

[Holmz]

I was happy seeing the Lions overtake the Magpies last weekend.
E’re within asking distance of the National ANZAC Centre @Rob181

 

[Mgrif104]

I noticed in your signature block the Matthew Bond cables.
Those gave me “the allure” and FOMO in a big time way.
I am still considering a pair.
I assume that you like them?

There is an Aussie podcast that is pretty entertaining if you like dry humour.
The Matthew Bond session is worth a listen IMHO.

Matthew Bond & TARA Labs

Podcast Episode · Not An Audiophile · 12/09/2024 · 1h 42m

podcasts.apple.com

It is a pretty good podcast for staying awake on a drive.

Matthew’s a good guy - I’ve spoken with him several times. (Good salesman, too - but genuine). I’ll have to listen to the podcast. I have his GSC 36 speaker cables which I like very much. I compared to Nordost V2. The Nordost seem perhaps a touch more open, but that’s probably because the GSC 36 are more fleshed out. Fyi: he has them terminated with very thick spades which didn’t fit in my first amp’s binding posts. I also have a pair of his reference analog interconnects which are very good. As often happens in our hobby, I no longer need such high end interconnects as my gear meets the balanced standard (forget the code cite, but not the same as just being truly balanced end to end) which negates the benefits of high end cables. I’m keeping them anyway as who knows configuration down the road. I also have a pair of the Nordost V2 xlr interconnects laying around. Ugh. I should probably sell some of my gear. I suspect many of us on WBF have the same problem. In any case, I also suspect you’d like his cables.
Best,

 

[Holmz]

There are 2 bond podcasts on there, and one is really a stunner… Probably the second one.

 

[PYP]

Matthew’s a good guy - I’ve spoken with him several times. (Good salesman, too - but genuine). I’ll have to listen to the podcast. I have his GSC 36 speaker cables which I like very much. I compared to Nordost V2. The Nordost seem perhaps a touch more open, but that’s probably because the GSC 36 are more fleshed out. Fyi: he has them terminated with very thick spades which didn’t fit in my first amp’s binding posts. I also have a pair of his reference analog interconnects which are very good. As often happens in our hobby, I no longer need such high end interconnects as my gear meets the balanced standard (forget the code cite, but not the same as just being truly balanced end to end) which negates the benefits of high end cables. I’m keeping them anyway as who knows configuration down the road. I also have a pair of the Nordost V2 xlr interconnects laying around. Ugh. I should probably sell some of my gear. I suspect many of us on WBF have the same problem. In any case, I also suspect you’d like his cables.
Best,

do you know the cost of his reference ICs? I can contact him via his website, but if they are priced beyond what I would like to spend I will not take his time answering that basic question.

Seems there are more reviews of his speaker cables that ICs...

 

[Mgrif104]

do you know the cost of his reference ICs? I can contact him via his website, but if they are priced beyond what I would like to spend I will not take his time answering that basic question.

Seems there are more reviews of his speaker cables that ICs...

While I do know, I suggest you call him directly as I don’t think he likes to have that price discussed publicly. He’s very approachable and I think he’d prefer you call to chat about it.
Best,

 

[PYP]

While I do know, I suggest you call him directly as I don’t think he likes to have that price discussed publicly. He’s very approachable and I think he’d prefer you call to chat about it.
Best,

OK. Thank you. Understood. I did finally find a ballpark price (assuming all prices are going up).

 

[Holmz]

do you know the cost of his reference ICs? I can contact him via his website, but if they are priced beyond what I would like to spend I will not take his time answering that basic question.

Seems there are more reviews of his speaker cables that ICs...

When all else fails, then at least keep the cables short.

He, Bond, does have some astounding specs for the cables, and they are pretty much right out of Maxwell’s work in terms of theory going into a proper design.

 

[PYP]

When all else fails, then at least keep the cables short.

He, Bond, does have some astounding specs for the cables, and they are pretty much right out of Maxwell’s work in terms of theory going into a proper design.

From what I've seen, the cost of the ICs is very reasonable when compared to other manufacturers. 3 feet (shortest length) would work fine for my setup.

Having listened to half of the first podcast, I'm intrigued. His approach is sensible and straightforward. It would seem that most of the cost is labor since his design is labor intensive to build. Yes, the specs are astounding.

 

[Holmz]

From what I've seen, the cost of the ICs is very reasonable when compared to other manufacturers. 3 feet (shortest length) would work fine for my setup.

Having listened to half of the first podcast, I'm intrigued. His approach is sensible and straightforward. It would seem that most of the cost is labor since his design is labor intensive to build. Yes, the specs are astounding.

I am pretty sure the second one is the ripper of a podcast.

Bond says something like, “Quite frankly, it’s almost all B.S.”… or something along those lines.
And the host, Andrew Hutchinson, often says things like, “Tell me it’s not true.”

I have a friend in Bend, and I’ve been to Mt Ashland and that little town where Tara Labs is at.
It was either Medford or Ashland.

 

[Atmasphere]

When all else fails, then at least keep the cables short.

He, Bond, does have some astounding specs for the cables, and they are pretty much right out of Maxwell’s work in terms of theory going into a proper design.

Balanced line connections have standards unlike RCA cables. The first one to know is AES48, in which we find out that ground is ignored. The second is a low impedance aspect, where the device driving the cable can have its output expressed in dBm, which refers to the VU level when driving 600 Ohms, so its an expression of milliWatts.

The result is that balanced line cables from 70 years ago can work in a manner that is completely neutral. That is literally what ushered in the Golden Age (as Harry Pearson described it) of high fidelity (that and the introduction of the Westerex 3D cutter head). I've often wondered why audiophiles don't want interconnect cables to be inexpensive and completely neutral (such that you don't have an expensive cable turning into a white elephant in your living room). I've not sorted out if they don't know about the standards and the resulting benefits or just don't care.

When the standards are not being supported its pretty well the Wild West, which seems to be how most of high end audio handles balanced line.

 

[Mgrif104]

I noticed in your signature block the Matthew Bond cables.
Those gave me “the allure” and FOMO in a big time way.
I am still considering a pair.
I assume that you like them?

There is an Aussie podcast that is pretty entertaining if you like dry humour.
The Matthew Bond session is worth a listen IMHO.

Matthew Bond & TARA Labs

Podcast Episode · Not An Audiophile · 12/09/2024 · 1h 42m

podcasts.apple.com

It is a pretty good podcast for staying awake on a drive.

Thanks for the podcast link. Just had a chance to listen to - good stuff!

 

[PYP]

I've often wondered why audiophiles don't want interconnect cables to be inexpensive and completely neutral

I think many do want neutral. But what is that? You have recorded performances and therefore can compare what you heard live, and through headphones during the performance, with what you hear at home. Very few of us have that reference point. The best we can do is compare live performances with playback at home and find a balance that works for our particular ears.

I've compared Mogami with Kubala-Sosna. The Mogami was very good and had a very tidy, smaller soundstage. The KS sounds more voluptuous and bigger without distorting timbre or impeding timing and dynamics. I admit that even if not strictly neutral, I prefer the KS (one need not climb up their brand ladder into the ionosphere of cost).

My ICs are balanced since that is preferred by the manufacturers of my gear.

 

[Atmasphere]

My ICs are balanced since that is preferred by the manufacturers of my gear.

The problem you are up against is that if the gear doesn't support the balanced line standards (for example: AES48) you'll hear cable differences. Once that is sorted out you can't hear differences between the cables to any great degree at all.