A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency

[Elliot G.]

It certainly appears that way. Other forums tend to view WBF with a jaundiced eye due to industry experts playing the role of good audio samaritan along with other stealth influencers/reviewers driven by special accommodations. There are several brands that come to mind that were birthed using that paradigm.

I don't know about the eye thing but there are people "out on the line" as per Vince Vaughn that are more than casual observers. There is a distinct trend to IMO undermine certain products while elevating others and this is not a one off as I see it over and over again. I do not know if this orchestrated or just tribal as it seems to emigrate from the members of the audio cartel. If you don't know what that is then ask around.

 

[Iamrael]

Another “hole” that can be (re)visited are sponsored threads.
It’s one thing to know the affiliation of a given poster within any given (random) thread, but it couldn’t hurt to also make it completely obvious if an entire thread is funded and monitored (with the option to delete, edit, or move) by the sponsor that paid for the space.
Unassuming members have no idea they are not getting the whole truth/story.
Might even be nice to leave a space or make notation of some sort to indicate such actions.

 

[Rt66indierock]

You guys carry on.

 

[Kbh57]

I'm just a lowly consumer who doesn't claim golden ears or deep insights, so I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm not smart enough to participate here-a conclusion many of you likely reached after reading my first post. To my primitive understanding, the OP only called for sellers to be honest about release dates, not take money for products not yet fully designed and tested, and to otherwise deal with customers with integrity. That, it seems to me, is just basic honesty and is probably the law in most states. I would think anything less is unacceptable and manufacturers or dealers who don't demonstrate this level of honesty should be called out by name. I don't understand why Ron's post is at all controversial.

 

[SCAudiophile]

I know that this site loves to beat dead horses over and over to keep checking are they dead .

The simple way to do this is differentiate clearly civilians form the enlisted ( industry). I am not trying to be insensitive but wouldn't the visibly impaired be using some method other than what we are now?

Either change colors that is natures way of telling you to watch out
Change type faces
put industry warning signs
have Kamala explain via video
Have American Eagle make a commercial
Maybe Taylor Swift can write a song about it
Let the View discuss it

Thanks for choosing my post for the dead horses reply, Elliot. ;-)

 

[caesar]

The industry of high-end audio chronicles the passion for emotionally-engaging sound, the pursuit of engineering perfection and the love of music. The designers of our components come to audio from many different fields, but each designer wants to fill our ears and our souls with joy from the sound of extraordinarily reproduced music.

We are an unusual industry, comprised of a few relatively large companies, and many small companies. Many high-end audio manufacturers start as one person efforts, literally in their garages.

High-end audio is a very unique hobby-based industry in which manufacturers often are in direct communication with end-users, often through WBF. This post is a request for greater honesty and transparency from manufacturers in this industry.

A manufacturer announces a new product, and the manufacturer's distributors and dealers discuss that product publicly. To the end-user the buzz states explicitly or at least implies that the product appears to be a completely engineered, completely tested and ready for production component.

Hobbyists order the component from dealers and the order payments go up the distribution chain back to the manufacturer. If the manufacturer does not have stock on hand, then these payments are used to produce the next copies of the component. In a small, under-capitalized manufacturer this is fine, because the companies are not large enough to produce a quantity of components and maintain an inventory. This is why in our industry orders often take several weeks or months to fill as the manufacturer literally produces the component to order after receiving payment.

But what if, in reality, the manufacturer uses the first purchaser order payments merely to continue and to complete the design and the testing and the pre-production of the component? I think this is wrong.

If a manufacturer conveys talking points to its distributor and that distributor conveys those talking points to its dealers and its dealers convey those talking points to prospective purchasers, I want those talking points to be scrupulously accurate. I don't want those talking points by the manufacturer -- which then are propagated downstream -- to be merely aspirational. If a product is announced as in existence and ready for purchase then that product should be actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Unfortunately in high-end audio many manufacturers are under-capitalized with inadequate funds for proper testing of new components under development and about to be released. Manufacturers don't have a dozen prototypes which they send out across the world to be tested in situ in many different audio systems comprised of many different components. High-end audio manufacturers are not like Porsche which sends out prototypes across the world to be test driven from the freezing roads of Finland to the desert roads of Saudi Arabia.

This is not the consumers' problem. This is the manufacturer's problem. Low volume manufacturers in this industry should not use early purchasing consumers as the beta testers. In my opinion many components in this industry are too expensive for the manufacturer effectively to be using the first purchasers as the beta testers.

I advocate for complete honesty and transparency from manufacturers. A hobbyist should not have to wait many months or even a year or more for a component to arrive at his/her front door as the product's design and testing and reproduction -- unbeknownst to the purchaser and maybe even unbeknownst to the distributor and to the dealer -- actually is completed.

Manufacturers should not announce product release dates which are not realistic.

Manufacturers should not take payments for products which are not yet actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Manufacturers should not use early-adopting purchasers as beta testers.

Partisan preferences for particular brands and components aside, I hope we all can agree that manufacturers should be scrupulously honest with us hobbyists.

Hi Ron,
Thanks for starting this thread. Loooks like you are getting a lot of intellectual diversity on the replies.

My question is why are you appealing to manufacturers? Many of these guys are small fish looking to make a quick buck. Many are delusional in their entrepreneurial dreams. Many are pathetic. And many will do anything and everything to succeed, including lie , cheat and steal. It’s just human nature.

How many people in the world are truly altruistic, outside of maybe mother Theresa ? Even Castro loved his $250/ pound Spanish Jamon! The world’s greatest dictators justify their murders based on altruism.

Instead, Why not appeal to people’s self interest, which is more aligned with human nature ?

Also, if you are making this plea, why not make it to the industry leaders instead?

Even if there is no shared standard of excellence in this subjective industry, there at least need to be a moral standard of honesty and integrity for the industry to survive.

Take Robert Harley from the Analytical Sound : this guy has claimed that Berkeley reference dac is the “greatest dac extant”, Magico is the greatest speaker ever engineered and reviewed, and he also came out on the side of Mofi when they committed fraud by writing an editorial justifying it.. among much of similar lies and misinformation throughout his career …

Shortly after the Analytical Sound hired the wounded Michael Fremer for Stereophile, a guy with integrity, he was one of the speakers at an Axpona panel on recordings. The whole time he had his tail between his legs, defending himself after being made the goat of the incident. He was begging the industry for honesty and transparency. Yet we never got that point of view presented in the Analytical Sound… and other audio media just ignored the Mofi debacle, sweeping it under the rug…

If some clueless guy wants to drop 6 figures on a digital server from a DIY type operation on the internet, and not receive it for over a year, it’s his fault…

But aren’t you better off going after - or pleading with the industry leaders - the people truly who make this hobby truly disgusting by setting the tone and culture for lies and misinformation?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Ron,
Thanks for starting this thread. Loooks like you are getting a lot of intellectual diversity on the replies.

My question is why are you appealing to manufacturers? Many of these guys are small fish looking to make a quick buck. Many are delusional in their entrepreneurial dreams. Many are pathetic. And many will do anything and everything to succeed, including lie , cheat and steal. It’s just human nature.

How many people in the world are truly altruistic, outside of maybe mother Theresa ? Even Castro loved his $250/ pound Spanish Jamon! The world’s greatest dictators justify their murders based on altruism.

Instead, Why not appeal to people’s self interest, which is more aligned with human nature ?

Also, if you are making this plea, why not make it to the industry leaders instead?

Even if there is no shared standard of excellence in this subjective industry, there at least need to be a moral standard of honesty and integrity for the industry to survive.

Take Robert Harley from the Analytical Sound : this guy has claimed that Berkeley reference dac is the “greatest dac extant”, Magico is the greatest speaker ever engineered and reviewed, and he also came out on the side of Mofi when they committed fraud by writing an editorial justifying it.. among much of similar lies and misinformation throughout his career …

Shortly after the Analytical Sound hired the wounded Michael Fremer for Stereophile, a guy with integrity, he was one of the speakers at an Axpona panel on recordings. The whole time he had his tail between his legs, defending himself after being made the goat of the incident. He was begging the industry for honesty and transparency. Yet we never got that point of view presented in the Analytical Sound… and other audio media just ignored the Mofi debacle, sweeping it under the rug…

If some clueless guy wants to drop 6 figures on a digital server from a DIY type operation on the internet, and not receive it for over a year, it’s his fault…

But aren’t you better off going after - or pleading with the industry leaders - the people truly who make this hobby truly disgusting?

there are no leaders of the hifi industry that carry much weight at all. as far as influence, it's very very fragmented according to the silo you might be paying attention to. there might be recognized voices, but not any holder of the flame who has broad recognition.

name anyone and there are those who cheer, and others doubting.

so attempts to invalidate one group, and look to another, for some sort of quorum of authoritative horsepower, it does not exist. it's more a hobby with the power and then a cottage industry supporting it.

so comprehensive efforts to unify some sort of standard or action is pissing into the wind. groups can talk and get stuff done, but nothing like any overall control or direction. and there is no problem. it's healthy and alive. the status quo checks my boxes sufficiently. better than real life and seems to hold our attention.

 

[caesar]

there are no leaders of the hifi industry that carry much weight at all. as far as influence, it's very very fragmented according to the silo you might be paying attention to. there might be recognized voices, but not any holder of the flame who has broad recognition.

name anyone and there are those who cheer, and others doubting.

so attempts to invalidate one group, and look to another, for some sort of quorum of authoritative horsepower, it does not exist. it's more a hobby and then a cottage industry supporting it.

so comprehensive efforts to unify some sort of standard or action is pissing into the wind. groups can talk and get stuff done, but nothing like any overall control or direction. and there is no problem. it's healthy and alive. the status quo checks my boxes sufficiently. better than real life and seems to hold our attention.

Mike, respectfully disagree. The leaders, via lies of omission or commission, create a culture that allows all kinds of garbage.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, respectfully disagree. The leaders, via lies of omission or commission, create a culture that allows all kinds of garbage.

which is the baggage you haul into many conversations. i respect it's where you are coming from.

 

[Elliot G.]

there are no leaders of the hifi industry that carry much weight at all.

truer words have never been spoken. Its herding cats on a worldwide level

 

[caesar]

Mike, respectfully disagree. The leaders, via lies of omission or commission, create a culture that allows all kinds of garbage.

And also, this is a relatively small hobby. Bad behavior from Deviants and bad actors need to be constantly mentioned in all forms of media

 

[caesar]

truer words have never been spoken. Its herding cats on a worldwide level

But if anyone and everyone was public ally humiliated, like in the old days and in small tribes … much of it would cease

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And also, this is a relatively small hobby. Bad behavior from Deviants and bad actors need to be constantly mentioned in all forms of media

what you mean is that YOU need to find dirt and focus on it. and some feed off it and some carry on in spite of it. not saying you are always wrong. but your perspective and the weight you put on things is not how it looks to me.

sure some negative things happen. more of us are just hanging out and talking about enjoyment of the hobby......tubes<->solid state, digital<->analog, box speakers<->horns. Ron's and Peter's system. all the important things.

 

[caesar]

what you mean is that YOU need to find dirt and focus on it. and some feed off it and some carry on in spite of it. not saying you are always wrong. but your perspective and the weight you put on things is not how it looks to me.

sure some negative things happen. more of us are just hanging out and talking about enjoyment of the hobby......tubes<->solid state, digital<->analog, box speakers<->horns. Ron's and Peter's system. all the important things.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on what’s important . By the way, I wish all we could talk about is gear that could be great for us, but again so much misinformation in finding that gear…

PS. I find the “dirt” when I search for gear, and time is precious and expensive… read the raves about Magico q - analytical to hang your self from chandelier… read hype about $30k taiko computer and it consistently gets thrashed by $3k cd transport from China..

 

[andromedaaudio]

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on what’s important . By the way, I wish all we could talk about is gear that could be great for us, but again so much misinformation in finding that gear…

One advice go hear gear for yourself as to by pass the reviewer industry .
In that way you also support Brick / morter stores

 

[Atmasphere]

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on what’s important . By the way, I wish all we could talk about is gear that could be great for us, but again so much misinformation in finding that gear…

PS. I find the “dirt” when I search for gear, and time is precious and expensive… read the raves about Magico q - analytical to hang your self from chandelier… read hype about $30k taiko computer and it consistently gets thrashed by $3k cd transport from China..

I like to point out that high end audio is not driven by price by by intention.

 

[caesar]

One advice go hear gear for yourself as to by pass the reviewer industry .
In that way you also support Brick / morter stores

Absolutely agree. But a rational decision making approach call for starting with a set of contenders - a good number but not too many (while so many guys just trust their dealer or audio herd and get a suboptimal outcome or delusions)…so unfortunately come across many of those guys

And even more important is the precious Time to properly evaluate and compare products , in several settings

 

[wil]

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on what’s important . By the way, I wish all we could talk about is gear that could be great for us, but again so much misinformation in finding that gear…

PS. I find the “dirt” when I search for gear, and time is precious and expensive… read the raves about Magico q - analytical to hang your self from chandelier… read hype about $30k taiko computer and it consistently gets thrashed by $3k cd transport from China..

Ceasar, you never seem to tire of thrashing away at your chosen objects. It’s gotten to be quite predictable. Have you ever shared anything positive about either gear or music?

 

[caesar]

Ceasar, you never seem to tire of thrashing away at your chosen objects. It’s gotten to be quite predictable. Have you ever shared anything positive about either gear or music?

Repetition is the mother’s milk of learning. Consider it a positive if people learn from suckers’ experiences!

Ignore is your best friend!

 

[Narayan]

Ceasar, you never seem to tire of thrashing away at your chosen objects. It’s gotten to be quite predictable. Have you ever shared anything positive about either gear or music?

You want to read something positive about gear or music? Open any audio magazine, visit any audio magazine website where every product reviewed is fantastic and allows the reviewer to hear "things he´s never heard before" in a recording, read 99% of the posts in this or other forums...Caesar is an enfant terrible, although I might not always agree with it, I find his unsweetened delivery refreshing and his dissent honest (according to his tastes) someone has to tell the emperor he´s naked and not wearing new clothes. This does seem to bother some of you who being able to ignore him via a simple click, continue to inexplicably read his posts.