A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency

[Alrainbow]

How would you analyze and evaluate this situation:

A dealer wants to represent a certain loudspeaker brand. The loudspeaker manufacturer requires the dealer to purchase two pairs of loudspeakers to initiate the relationship. The dealer has enough cash to purchase only one pair of loudspeakers and to keep that pair in inventory for demo purposes at the dealership.

So the dealer finds a customer who will order one of the pairs of loudspeakers. To get the deal done with this customer and to enable the dealer to initiate the relationship with the brand the dealer agrees to sell the loudspeakers to the customer at the dealer's cost. The customer is happy with this great price, and they both agree to keep it hush-hush.

The dealer takes the order, and adds that customer's cash to the dealer's own cash to purchase the two required pairs of loudspeakers from the manufacturer, one pair if which was pre-sold to satisfy the manufacturer's initial purchase requirement.

That's not what the start of this thread stated , if the above-mentioned is the meaning then I feel ok . It's a deal at below real buying costs to others .
Many of us bought items sold direct with deposit and waited .
But when the maker sells to dealers in my world the maker is the issue if they can't produce the product in a timely manner, or it's not even completed yet as in produced a final product . Take taiko good company , well made stuff but the wait and why makes me very suspect over all.
Digital products are old when sold , very little of the parts if any are made by the name brand selling them . So as parts become no longer available what to do .
I have built servers plenty and when I found a good main board I bought a bunch of them. Same on cpu ,s no one has control of the actual situation in totality period.
In one case bough old used mainboards for there sound . Old used can't buy new no maker now would base a product on this .
Most main boards used are only made for a short period of time and while same brand same spec seems the same sound is not the same .
Even ram used is a night mare .
This goes across the entire audio industry .
So a more indepth post is needed Ron please

 

[Alrainbow]

Thank you for your post.

How would you have applied this analysis to the following companies before they experienced their recent developments (to put it politely).

Audio Research

darTZeel

Krell to add one more

 

[bonzo75]

Have you bought ,own a system yet ? Curious if not just what part of this thread are you viable in knowing lol

Not sure how this is even relevant, but you got a good like and laugh from the OP so congrats

 

[andromedaaudio]

Have you bought ,own a system yet ? Curious if not just what part of this thread are you viable in knowing lol

May be he did a large pre order down payment in the past ( years ago of which we are not aware ) and its still on the way
This is exactly the kind of thing ron warns against ., lol

 

[Kbh57]

As to Ron's OP, I read it as simply calling for basic honesty-kindergarten lessons. It should be a given that products are not misrepresented by manufacturers or dealers. If a product is offered for sale, the buyer should be able to assume that it has been fully designed and out of beta unless stated otherwise. Realistic delivery times should be given. I would always ask about delivery/install times and expect an honest answer. Buyers will understand minor delays that can occur, but if the date slips by extended periods of time, that's a material change and the buyer should have the option of cancelling. I would think that a manufacturer or dealer that consistently misrepresents delivery/install times-intentionally or not-will have a problem. Word of mouth-now done on the internet to large audiences-always carries bad news further and faster than good. Providing a delivery date or product status that the seller knows is false or incomplete raises f word issues. All this seems to be just basic honesty to me. People expect that sellers are going to sell, but that shouldn't ever be an excuse to misrepresent the product or the service.. Maybe I misunderstood Ron's post, but what he calls for should be a given-if its not, that's a problem.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe I misunderstood Ron's post, but what he calls for should be a given-if its not, that's a problem.

You understand correctly my post.

 

[mitch2+]

Manufacturers are going to do what they believe they need to do to stay competitive, make profit and keep their businesses alive. As buyers/customers, we have the power to change bad behaviors by how we spend our money. If you want to buy a component, have you heard it, seen it, seen a picture of it, read a review about it, read posts from other owners, or are you putting money down sight unseen to be an early adopter and satisfy your FOMO for a product that the latest “buzz” claims is a game-changer? As buyers, it is our money that ultimately drives how manufacturers operate.

Most of us here already have great sounding systems and probably don’t need anything so desperately that we need to pay for it before it even hits the marketplace. If you want to spend your money that way, at least do your due diligence on the company history and the product or, otherwise, accept the risk. Sorry, but I struggle with the premise that an entire industry needs to display “greater honesty and transparency” based on the practices of a few, that are supported by consumers who are willing to write a check for products not in evidence.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot. Billy Joel is a poet, and this is one of my favorite pieces of writing.

There are good and bad actors in every line of work. Even the best-intentioned of us sometimes fail.

I kind of grew up with Billy from his time in the Hassels to his solo career. My ex and I have seen him many times including twice on New Years eve . He did that for a while on Long Island and NYC. I really enjoyed the documentary about him and have been revisiting his music almost daily for the last week. I even made up a playlist for him. Its fun to remember all the great tunes. He had 4 or 5 monster albums in a row. I must have worn the Stranger out on my Dahlquists and my Linn LP-12.
He certainly is an amazing songwriter, singer and a fun performer. Of course he married Christy WOAH

 

[Elliot G.]

The industry of high-end audio chronicles the passion for emotionally-engaging sound, the pursuit of engineering perfection and the love of music. The designers of our components come to audio from many different fields, but each designer wants to fill our ears and our souls with joy from the sound of extraordinarily reproduced music.

We are an unusual industry, comprised of a few relatively large companies, and many small companies. Many high-end audio manufacturers start as one person efforts, literally in their garages.

High-end audio is a very unique hobby-based industry in which manufacturers often are in direct communication with end-users, often through WBF. This post is a request for greater honesty and transparency from manufacturers in this industry.

A manufacturer announces a new product, and the manufacturer's distributors and dealers discuss that product publicly. To the end-user the buzz states explicitly or at least implies that the product appears to be a completely engineered, completely tested and ready for production component.

Hobbyists order the component from dealers and the order payments go up the distribution chain back to the manufacturer. If the manufacturer does not have stock on hand, then these payments are used to produce the next copies of the component. In a small, under-capitalized manufacturer this is fine, because the companies are not large enough to produce a quantity of components and maintain an inventory. This is why in our industry orders often take several weeks or months to fill as the manufacturer literally produces the component to order after receiving payment.

But what if, in reality, the manufacturer uses the first purchaser order payments merely to continue and to complete the design and the testing and the pre-production of the component? I think this is wrong.

If a manufacturer conveys talking points to its distributor and that distributor conveys those talking points to its dealers and its dealers convey those talking points to prospective purchasers, I want those talking points to be scrupulously accurate. I don't want those talking points by the manufacturer -- which then are propagated downstream -- to be merely aspirational. If a product is announced as in existence and ready for purchase then that product should be actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Unfortunately in high-end audio many manufacturers are under-capitalized with inadequate funds for proper testing of new components under development and about to be released. Manufacturers don't have a dozen prototypes which they send out across the world to be tested in situ in many different audio systems comprised of many different components. High-end audio manufacturers are not like Porsche which sends out prototypes across the world to be test driven from the freezing roads of Finland to the desert roads of Saudi Arabia.

This is not the consumers' problem. This is the manufacturer's problem. Low volume manufacturers in this industry should not use early purchasing consumers as the beta testers. In my opinion many components in this industry are too expensive for the manufacturer effectively to be using the first purchasers as the beta testers.

I advocate for complete honesty and transparency from manufacturers. A hobbyist should not have to wait many months or even a year or more for a component to arrive at his/her front door as the product's design and testing and reproduction -- unbeknownst to the purchaser and maybe even unbeknownst to the distributor and to the dealer -- actually is completed.

Manufacturers should not announce product release dates which are not realistic.

Manufacturers should not take payments for products which are not yet actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Manufacturers should not use early-adopting purchasers as beta testers.

Partisan preferences for particular brands and components aside, I hope we all can agree that manufacturers should be scrupulously honest with us hobbyists.

Ron,
Do you think that WBF has played a part in the issues you have pointed out?
Personally I think we all have played a role in the market as it currently exists. All parties are involved and share part of the result.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,
Do you think that WBF has played a part in the issues you have pointed out?

The answer to "played a part" inevitably has to be "yes," if for no other reason than that WBF is a public communications platform. But I think "played a part" is too broad of an articulation of whatever point you really are trying to make.

Maybe you could explain more specifically your thinking behind this question?

 

[bonzo75]

If you want to buy a component, have you heard it, seen it, seen a picture of it, read a review about it, read posts from other owners, or are you putting money down sight unseen to be an early adopter and satisfy your FOMO for a product that the latest “buzz” claims is a game-changer?

Exactly that - it is less of listening and choosing sonically good components with feedback, vs scratching an itch and making early adopter announcements.

 

[Elliot G.]

The answer to "played a part" inevitably has to be "yes," if for no other reason than that WBF is a public communications platform. But I think "played a part" is too broad of an articulation of whatever point you really are trying to make.

Maybe you could explain more specifically your thinking behind this question?

well I think that WBF has played a part in promoting certain companies and a few might be what you are talking about in the OG post.
I also think that the Forum could do a better job of distinguishing who is who when they register and post.
There are many here who are very clear as to their involvement but there are others that aren't.

It would be hard not to notice one or two specifically and I do not want to have this thread stopped by saying the name

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I am a little surprised by your response. I understand that you might read Ron's post as idealistic or wishful thinking. But the strong objection reads almost like a rejection of his aim.

Exactly.

I think the process works fine as it is. I would not call my response as a rejection of Ron’s pleads to manufacturers, his aim. That all nice and fine to write.

But I like that there are no empty expectations that someone has written that some expect to be respected. I prefer the current real world caveat emptor of each buyer must do their homework and apply common sense and care.

Beyond that is just not realistic. It’s healthy for forums to talk about it and hopefully manufacturers will tend more to clean up their act as a result. But beyond that my view is we are on the proper road already and active enthusiasts have their effects on things as they should.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We don’t need some high and mighty ‘hifi’ police.

“I am from the hifi manufacturer police and I’m here to help” I hope I never hear.

 

[Atmasphere]

@Ron Resnick I think you might want to apply Occam's Razor to your concerns.

Put plainly if a 'manufacturer' is so lacking ethics as to use customer's money (as opposed to investor's money) for R&D, Occam's Razor suggests that your plea will be treated with that same lack of integrity.

IME it pretty hard to get a product entry to gain traction. The idea that somehow a manufacturer can make sales on vaporware is really crazy to me: how in the hell did they get that kind of street cred to be able to do that??

 

[Alrainbow]

Just kidding you kedar don't take offense . With all the amazing systems you have heard your views and comments are reviered.
Now why did I say that well unless it's your money ,your time waiting and your wanted outcome be it amazing or a flop .
You can't understand how true buyers , dealers , makers feel.
Sorry kedar but this is how feel

 

[Alrainbow]

Plenty of startups work and buying cheap products on Amazon shows this.
when someone spends tens of thousands on a given product it should be done as in produced.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I also think that the Forum could do a better job of distinguishing who is who when they register and post.

I agree. I think there are some members here who are dealers who do not disclose clearly and conspicuously the fact that they are dealers.

 

[ctydwn]

Exactly.

I think the process works fine as it is. I would not call my response as a rejection of Ron’s pleads to manufacturers, his aim. That all nice and fine to write.

But I like that there are no empty expectations that someone has written that some expect to be respected. I prefer the current real world caveat emptor of each buyer must do their homework and apply common sense and care.

Beyond that is just not realistic. It’s healthy for forums to talk about it and hopefully manufacturers will tend more to clean up their act as a result. But beyond that my view is we are on the proper road already and active enthusiasts have their effects on things as they should.

Absolutely agree. Separately, is there a circumstance that has lead to this plea? There are so many competitive companies pushing what is feasible in this industry, some better capitalized than others. The market is there. It is inevitable some may not survive. We all do our best to stay informed and make prudent decisions which we all likely define differently.

 

[Elliot G.]

@Ron Resnick I think you might want to apply Occam's Razor to your concerns.

Put plainly if a 'manufacturer' is so lacking ethics as to use customer's money (as opposed to investor's money) for R&D, Occam's Razor suggests that your plea will be treated with that same lack of integrity.

IME it pretty hard to get a product entry to gain traction. The idea that somehow a manufacturer can make sales on vaporware is really crazy to me: how in the hell did they get that kind of street cred to be able to do that??

if we are to be honest here there are a few that got a tremendous amount of support from this Forum and the positive endorsement of some of its "in crowd"
IMO one or two are very obvious
this has also worked in reverse to quell the negative tides as well.