...oh man, that's for sure. Hire people to goof around on desktop CPUs and stick post-it notes all over for tasks, groceries, etc. when the Angel guys visit. Dot-Bomb!
A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Not to state the obvious but do you really think this thread will have any impact on a manufacturer's honesty and transparency? How silly and naive. And if you still do, why?
Who doesn't? Again silly and naive. Who likes dishonest, manipulative people?
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Agree. I think we have to stay case by case with HiFi manufacturers and examine each circumstance as best we can and be open minded to that case and not pre judge until the facts as best that can be communicated are presented.
We have no authoritative judge or commission involved other than the courts per the rule of law.
And agree on the education part for dealers and customers as best they can be managed. Not sure dealers and customers care enough to actually do that. But a well intentioned thought.
Mike, I am a little surprised by your response. I understand that you might read Ron's post as idealistic or wishful thinking. But the strong objection reads almost like a rejection of his aim.
Elliot. Billy Joel is a poet, and this is one of my favorite pieces of writing.I think that a plea for everyone involved including Manufacturers, Distributors, Dealers, Reviewers, Social Media Influencers, and consumers would be wonderful but highly unlikely that the toothpaste goes back in the tube.
All the participants of the audio chain have issues.
Honesty :
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Honesty
Song by Billy Joel ‧ 1978
OverviewLyrics
Lyrics
If you search for tenderness
It isn't hard to find
You can have the love you need to live
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind
It always seems to be so hard to give
Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard
And mostly what I need from you
There are good and bad actors in every line of work. Even the best-intentioned of us sometimes fail.
Why did you order it? If the product was so new, surely it must not have had enough users to get feedback on? So what was the reason for buying it? Just try something new? Discount before it went big with distributors?
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Surely the former group already knows all there is to know.
Yeah, it is the consumer's problem if they send money for unfinished or untested products. Could it be wiser to wait for products that have undergone real world shake out?
Audiophile world is not exempt from clueless or gullible consumerism. If you want to engage with under-capitalized producers of goods, understand the risks you are taking. If you desire to be an early adopter, be educated and understand the risks of being one. Rare is the audio product that does not have a 1.1 version. Treat upfront money as a refundable depost when on-time delivery fails or is questionable. It sounds almost childish to say be aware, be knowledgeable of what and with whom who you're spending money.
I am not anti-high-end, I wonder how you could read it from my post.
I am making live tape and high-res recordings (stereo and quadraphonic) with Siltech, Crystal Cable silver/gold cables, and some Wireworld Platinum silver breakout cable for the Nagra IVS. We even have a Pink Faun OCXO Ultra-clocked motherboard PC for Pyramix to make DSD256 recordings. I organized and soon will be organizing again, live studio recordings with audience.
So I definitely do not think I am against high-end.
The problem I have with the OP is as micro rightly said it is a trojan. Pretending thought leadership where none exists. Next will be a plea for everyone to not lie, eat healthy, and exercise.
IMO this subject affects how most audiophiles buy gear, as in:
1. How large and how old / established is the brand.
2. Will the brand honour / be around for warranty claims (2 years) or longer for paid repairs.
3. What would the resale on the product be down the track.
4. Will it be reliable (probably major question on tube gear).
We are all grown ups, and take most magazine reviews with a pinch of salt. Sad but there you go IMO. Owner reviews carry more weight IMO, and here is the power of a good audio forum. This is the reason many of us are on here so much.
On the other subject of the OP, paying a deposit up front, I am ok with that. Let's face it most cars, you pay a deposit and wait 3 months or much more. I am waiting 9 months for a basic BMW model.
Lastly, the elephant in the room is dodgy dealers. Some buy say 2 models to sell right out the door to pre-arranged customers - at 'unofficial' discounts. They may get caught and be sacked by that brand. But then do it again to another brand. It is ugly, and can damage the brand they are doing it too, and it is a huge betrayal of trust with that brand. Fortunately I think this is quite rare, and most dealers play by the rules.
Which brings things full circle, and I believe WBF do a good job of containing the shadier side of the sales business. Any business where commission is involved attracts some shady characters, and audio is no different.
Personally all my buying of audio gear has been based on advice I got off forums first. I value that a lot. In other words we as members are the glue that holds this together, and if we use the knowledge we all have in the audio sector, we will make informed choices.
1. How large and how old / established is the brand.
2. Will the brand honour / be around for warranty claims (2 years) or longer for paid repairs.
3. What would the resale on the product be down the track.
4. Will it be reliable (probably major question on tube gear).
We are all grown ups, and take most magazine reviews with a pinch of salt. Sad but there you go IMO. Owner reviews carry more weight IMO, and here is the power of a good audio forum. This is the reason many of us are on here so much.
On the other subject of the OP, paying a deposit up front, I am ok with that. Let's face it most cars, you pay a deposit and wait 3 months or much more. I am waiting 9 months for a basic BMW model.
Lastly, the elephant in the room is dodgy dealers. Some buy say 2 models to sell right out the door to pre-arranged customers - at 'unofficial' discounts. They may get caught and be sacked by that brand. But then do it again to another brand. It is ugly, and can damage the brand they are doing it too, and it is a huge betrayal of trust with that brand. Fortunately I think this is quite rare, and most dealers play by the rules.
Which brings things full circle, and I believe WBF do a good job of containing the shadier side of the sales business. Any business where commission is involved attracts some shady characters, and audio is no different.
Personally all my buying of audio gear has been based on advice I got off forums first. I value that a lot. In other words we as members are the glue that holds this together, and if we use the knowledge we all have in the audio sector, we will make informed choices.
This post misunderstands the nature of the industry and the nature of the problem I expressed in the opening piece and the facts of actual industry practices. Also do a bit of basic research on consumer protection rules, Tim.
It is the consumer's problem if they send money for unfinished or untested products. This comment feels disingenuous. Give us a few examples of audiophiles who sent money for products they (i) knew or (ii) they were told by manufacturers or by dealers were "unfinished or untested."
Rare is the audio product that does not have a 1.1 version. An improved 1.1 version is an answer to a different question than the one I asked in the opening piece. The fact that a component evolves to an improved 1.1 version suggests the opposite of the problem I raise here. An improved 1.1 version suggests that the original product worked and enjoyed some success and did break, fail or blow up.
Could it be wiser to wait for products that have undergone real world shake out? In this very low production volume industry what constitutes "wait[ing] for products that have undergone real world shake out?"
1) Is this condition satisfied when a reviewer at The Absolute Sound reviews serial number 003 and 004 of a new mono amplifier?
2) Exactly how many of, say, a $150,000 preamp should a prospective purchaser verify have been manufactured before he/she places his/her order?
Treat upfront money as a refundable depost [sic] when on-time delivery fails or is questionable.
1) Give us a few examples of dealers who gave audiophiles at the time of receiving deposits for component orders a precise date on which the deposits would be returned if the component's delivery is unexpectedly later delayed.
2) What are the facts and circumstances which objectively qualify a delivery to be "questionable"?
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I am not telling that you are anti-high-end, I am just telling that the content of your post can easily be used against the high-end. A side effect of such plea. But surely I agree with several of your points - how could I disagree with someone sharing my preference for Crystal Cable silver/gold cables?
Anyone in the high-end industry has glass roofs (consumers included, surely) , IMO focusing on a particular part of it will have a dragging effect.
Look. I’m not complaining. I am giving an example of what Ron is talking about. No discount. What occurred is my purely my responsibility. When you’ve been at this for almost fifty years seeking transformative experiences it will take you outside the mainstream from time to time. That doesn’t change the fact that there is a lot of BS in this business and Ron does have a point. I regret posting on this particular subject and will not comment further.
?… kind of an odd, innuendo laden post. Maybe instead, best to be direct as to what’s on your mind?
I think Ron’s post is worthwhile.
I am not asking whose responsibility. I am asking what drove you to order a product that does not have enough user feedback
How would you analyze and evaluate this situation:
A dealer wants to represent a certain loudspeaker brand. The loudspeaker manufacturer requires the dealer to purchase two pairs of loudspeakers to initiate the relationship. The dealer has enough cash to purchase only one pair of loudspeakers and to keep that pair in inventory for demo purposes at the dealership.
So the dealer finds a customer who will order one of the pairs of loudspeakers. To get the deal done with this customer and to enable the dealer to initiate the relationship with the brand the dealer agrees to sell the loudspeakers to the customer at the dealer's cost. The customer is happy with this great price, and they both agree to keep it hush-hush.
The dealer takes the order, and adds that customer's cash to the dealer's own cash to purchase the two required pairs of loudspeakers from the manufacturer, one pair if which was pre-sold to satisfy the manufacturer's initial purchase requirement.
Have you bought ,own a system yet ? Curious if not just what part of this thread are you viable in knowing lol
Thank you for your post.
How would you have applied this analysis to the following companies before they experienced their recent developments (to put it politely).
Audio Research
darTZeel
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