5th AudioExotics Super Hi-End Show

[spiritofmusic]

Good luck on the film
But trying to make the uber high end sexy, or indeed any audio even half infused w sexiness, is destined to end in abject failure
Look at all the expensive visual stuff out there
Super cars, classic/vintage cars, hell cars full stop
Architecture
Paintings
Watches, jewellery, even that $1m cigar humidor
Even good food, gardens
And the handbags, designer shoes and lingerie that cling to beautiful women
All this works on film
Has a cultural and visual significance
...
And now we're expecting a pair of big tower spkrs, 3 box streamer, amps, cables to similarly get the pulses racing
So it might just appeal to the aficionados amongst us
But I can't see it having anything other than zero appeal to the other 99% who think this hobby is crazy enough w'out showing on film a Troy Elite that for the same price gets you a Porsche Boxster

 

[RogerD]

...
And now we're expecting a pair of big tower spkrs, 3 box streamer, amps, cables to similarly get the pulses racing
So it might just appeal to the aficionados amongst us
But I can't see it having anything other than zero appeal to the other 99% who think this hobby is crazy enough w'out showing on film a Troy Elite that for the same price gets you a Porsche Boxster

Sorry that is crazy...imho

 

[spiritofmusic]

Roger, my point is not so much the craziness of that, but that its relevance can't be revealed on a film
So if this is just a puff piece for AE to appeal to the converted, great
I'm sure it'll be splendid viewing, and the rest of incurable audiophilia crowd such as us will coo and sigh
But for anyone else watching, it'll come across as impenetrable
So, show a film of a drop dead gorgeous babe decked in furs and jewels, or draped over a Pagani Zonda, or bedecked in Victoria Secret or Jimmy Choos, or even smoking rare Cubans, or reclining on a Le Corbusier, everyone watching will "get" it (even if they'll never be able to afford the stuff, it has universal appeal)
But drape the same girl over a Troy Elite or Wadax 3 box, or next to a Zanden Choukoh, or astride a Göbel Divin, and they'll scratch their heads, confused

 

[RogerD]

Roger, my point is not so much the craziness of that, but that its relevance can't be revealed on a film
So if this is just a puff piece for AE to appeal to the converted, great
I'm sure it'll be splendid viewing, and the rest of incurable audiophilia crowd such as us will coo and sigh
But for anyone else watching, it'll come across as impenetrable
So, show a film of a drop dead gorgeous babe decked in furs and jewels, or draped over a Pagani Zonda, or bedecked in Victoria Secret or Jimmy Choos, or even smoking rare Cubans, or reclining on a Le Corbusier, everyone watching will "get" it (even if they'll never be able to afford the stuff, it has universal appeal)
But drape the same girl over a Troy Elite or Wadax 3 box, or next to a Zanden Choukoh, or astride a Göbel Divin, and they'll scratch their heads, confused

Marc, I'm just a mere mortal and I don't understand it, but hey to each his own. I do think 65K for a ground box is over the top....Jeff Zuckerberg knock yourself out.

 

[Stereophonic]

I don't understand some reactions.
That is "What's best forum". So here is where we talk about the best of audio in the world.
What's the problem? The price? I can't purchase most of the components of the AE Show so what?
I'm a new Wadax Server owner and thanks to the Atlantis line research soon will be a more affordable line.
If i couldn't buy the Atlantis Dac i'll be happy with the Arcadia one.
The same with Divin. There will be a smaller and more afordable speaker thanks to the Divin project.
What's the problem with Tripoint? You only have to read the Tripoint thread to understand so great it is.
I can't afford the Elite but the SE is still there.
There are a lot of people on that forum with very expensive products. Hey !!! I'm glad for they. And i'm very happy that they share their impressions to learn and improve my system until where i can.
Are you thinking they are superficial people that only buy that components to get a status?
Nobody knows the price of my new Server because they wouldn't understand the value it has for me. But that is a question of priorities. My system is as expensive as a Ferrari but i have a VW. I like cars but music is above. At the same time i respect the reverse priorities.
And about the AE film i'll see it and i'll enjoyed it. I'm very interested on the inteviews.
And finally, that as others, is a business. I don't see anything bad in it. All of us work to get money.
If you want the best you have to pay for it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Stereophonic, don't get too irritated
After two decades of audio upgrading finding the synergy of components I'm really settled on, and the epiphany that is a fantastic acoustic and spooky quiet power grid, I'm about to spend big on my final frontier upgrade, Stacore isolation
I'm likely to spend as much on this as the budget for Troy SE box and 10 SE ground cbls
People would probably consider me a little loose in the head too
If I have an issue w Troy Elite, it is that for a system requiring 10 components to be grounded, like my system, one would have to buy two boxes, and as such it goes from almost unobtainable financially to completely out of the q for 99% of audiophiles
IMHO something like the Elite at its exalted price should be able to cover grounding an extensive system using just the single box

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't understand some reactions.
That is "What's best forum". So here is where we talk about the best of audio in the world.
What's the problem? The price? I can't purchase most of the components of the AE Show so what?
I'm a new Wadax Server owner and thanks to the Atlantis line research soon will be a more affordable line.
If i couldn't buy the Atlantis Dac i'll be happy with the Arcadia one.
The same with Divin. There will be a smaller and more afordable speaker thanks to the Divin project.
What's the problem with Tripoint? You only have to read the Tripoint thread to understand so great it is.
I can't afford the Elite but the SE is still there.
There are a lot of people on that forum with very expensive products. Hey !!! I'm glad for they. And i'm very happy that they share their impressions to learn and improve my system until where i can.
Are you thinking they are superficial people that only buy that components to get a status?
Nobody knows the price of my new Server because they wouldn't understand the value it has for me. But that is a question of priorities. My system is as expensive as a Ferrari but i have a VW. I like cars but music is over. At the same time i respect the reverse priorities.
And about the AE film i'll see it and i'll enjoyed it. I'm very interested on the inteviews.
And finally, that as others, is a business. I don't see anything bad in it. All of us work to get money.
If you want the best you have to pay for it.

+1

I agree with everything you said. thank you.

maybe it might help to view people who speak to perceived high prices as 'self-talk'......it's what they say to themselves, but just happen to speak it out loud and we are within ear shot so we hear it. and I mean nothing negative by saying that toward Marc, but I do not expect validation for expensive purchases......since it does hit people's restrictive zones all the time. and prompts them to state their views about it.

WBF get's less of this than many forums, but we still get some. maybe only the AE forum has less of that talk, and what they have is more a respect and honor toward those who make such a huge commitment, and those who do make that commitment are not always those who are most able to do it. one does not follow the other.

being 'all-in' and at one end of the bell curve is obviously not for everyone.....regardless of means.

 

[bonzo75]

No one needs to justify an expensive purchase but that doesn't mean it should be said to be better than the lower priced one because the price so indicates. Of course it might better then someone should state how they arrived at that conclusion rather than because it ought to be of course

 

[microstrip]

(...) That is "What's best forum". So here is where we talk about the best of audio in the world. (...)

+1!

 

[RogerD]

I don't know what model Troy that is,but I would suggest that if that was taken out of the system the Divin speakers would be less impressive.

Played at high dB levels given the acreage it was effortlessly room filling , finessed with a good holographic projection and absolutely no stridency, glare or hardness. While Vinyl was better in degrees of goodness , the gulf between analog and digital was not such that listening to digital made you long for the other . Maybe I am comfortable with the sound of the DAC , having one in my chain and that sort of alleviated the comfort factor. I did at times wish that that they had used a fully passive speaker design and let the Trinity mono amps full reign. There is no warming up of sound , nor elongated decay trails if that's your thing . The rise and fall of the note is as produced at the event, a clear glass less window . Tea without sugar .

Dietmar has produced a new range of cables , if they go up and are proved against other benchmarks , they sure will bust a lot of audiophile beliefs . They are the Scrawniest slimline cables ever . Be interesting if there's much more on them.

Second up the Qian Long and Engstrom room .... Coming from the Trinity room , it takes a while to acclimatize , to a more shall we say traditional sound . One which many might prefer given personal tastes . The Digital duties were carried out by the JMF 3.7 transport linked to the JMF DAC , while the TT in residence was the Disc Rotator Ultimate coupled to the Thales Statement arm and a Etsuro Cobalt Blue cart . The Robert Koda phono made an appearance , with pre amplification duties carried out by the Monica Ver2 pre amp . The power filter applied was the Trinity box. Cables were a mix of Dalby plus Tripoint . There was some serious Tripoint fire power here , with the now flagship Elite along with the Empress speaker grounding units and two other Tripoint Thor SE units .

The gulf between digital and analog was immense . I have not heard much about the JMF DAC nor had prior experience of it , but that's where I would be pointing a finger at . Am sure the new Koda phono further helped tilt the scales . Spinning vinyl gave it wings to spread and soar . The GIP paper drivers of the the Qian Long producing a tone that was organic and had good tone density . The balance was tilted mid range "down" and not tilted towards the tweet . This incidentally is the centering that I prefer , provided there is no loss of HF extension or detail. It scaled well to be room filling without any audible signs of mechanical stress , giving a sense of effortlessness . The sound was not tubey but had a clear tone with good control of the 18 inch field coil bass drivers . Apparently Timo Engstrom is an active choir singer , as was his father and I suppose he has voiced the amps using this sensibility .

Miguel from Tripoint is a fun guy , he mentioned to me that this level of sound reproduction is rarely if ever heard at the Axpona and other US shows . Nearing closing time , he unplugged the Tripoint Elite from the system ..... The sound-field collapsed shrinking from its glorious finessed self to one of mortal dimensions . Plug it back in and the boosters lit up , life was good . Normalcy restored . It would have been great , if the Trinity room employed a grounding scheme . In spite of Dietmar's belief , his products from personal experience do respond to "quasi "Grounding .

As I pointed out grounding in two of the "What's Best" systems had grounding systems installed which is good. The question is how much improvement was the grounding and how much was cables,electronics,source,or speakers...evidently the high end world hasn't fully grasped what grounding can do. So the question is if you remove the grounding and it makes a super system a mere normal sounding system. Is the prices or technology really worth the price asked. I would be more impressed with the system that reached a high level without the Tripoint grounding. A engineered system can have killer sound if the internal grounding schemes are engineered properly and matched which most are not.

I really don't care how much people spend....I share the same passion for this hobby as anybody. My experience is look before you leap the water is very deep...when it comes to the new technology of grounding....a very old technology in the recording industry but somehow a new technology in high end and priced that way too.

 

[DaveC]

IDK... threads with topics like this, it just doesn't make so much sense to talk about price or judge a lot of this stuff on typical value criteria. It's super low volume artwork as much as pushing the envelope of sound design and engineering. Cost probably wasn't a major consideration, if a consideration at all in it's design either. Personally, I am thankful there is a market for these kinds of products so we can see what's possible, and if lucky actually experience it ourselves via shows like this.

I do understand there is a movement to expand the frontiers and associated pricing of audio gear and this can be a double edged sword in some ways so I also understand the criticism... but we should keep an open mind and avoid cynicism. I'd certainly prefer to discuss the merits of the gear on it's own values and not talk about pricing trends all the time.

 

[Tango]

"The question is how much improvement was the grounding and how much was cables,electronics,source,or speakers...evidently the high end world hasn't fully grasped what grounding can do. So the question is if you remove the grounding and it makes a super system a mere normal sounding system. Is the prices or technology really worth the price asked. I would be more impressed with the system that reached a high level without the Tripoint grounding"

I believe that most people who even start to consider buying a Tripoint, knowing how expensive it is, are those already have all their fundamental hifi aspects of sound covered in their system. If your room acoustic sucks, fix that first, it's a whole lot cheaper. If your basic infrastructure of power line and grounding are not established, fix that first too.
Tripoint is something that add extra bit to your sound like making a Michelin one star restaurant to a two star. Why adding expensive special icing sugar on top while your pastry havent got the dough right? If your dough isnt right you wont even win a star in the first place, and the icing is not gonna fix your fundamental. Tripoint will definitely improve the sound regardless where your system stand. But the question how much improvement Tripoint gives, I think, the answer is all relative. For those want to up themself to two stars, the may find the improvement is crucial and detrimental to them. But those who already happy with the taste of their cooking, it might mean much less to them. This is my opinion.
One more thing, for people who live in a dense city like HK or Bangkok metro zone, it is highly unlikely they can put special grounding rods anywhere near their home.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Audiocrack]

I don't understand some reactions.
That is "What's best forum". So here is where we talk about the best of audio in the world.
What's the problem? The price? I can't purchase most of the components of the AE Show so what?
I'm a new Wadax Server owner and thanks to the Atlantis line research soon will be a more affordable line.
If i couldn't buy the Atlantis Dac i'll be happy with the Arcadia one.
The same with Divin. There will be a smaller and more afordable speaker thanks to the Divin project.
What's the problem with Tripoint? You only have to read the Tripoint thread to understand so great it is.
I can't afford the Elite but the SE is still there.
There are a lot of people on that forum with very expensive products. Hey !!! I'm glad for they. And i'm very happy that they share their impressions to learn and improve my system until where i can.
Are you thinking they are superficial people that only buy that components to get a status?
Nobody knows the price of my new Server because they wouldn't understand the value it has for me. But that is a question of priorities. My system is as expensive as a Ferrari but i have a VW. I like cars but music is over. At the same time i respect the reverse priorities.
And about the AE film i'll see it and i'll enjoyed it. I'm very interested on the inteviews.
And finally, that as others, is a business. I don't see anything bad in it. All of us work to get money.
If you want the best you have to pay for it.

Have no problems at all with trying to achieve stellar sound. But at stated before I do have problems with:

1. Outrageous/crazy pricing. Not only AE's fault but they play their role in setting totally crazy prices that nobody pays in the first place forcing audiophiles into a 'negotiation game' that most of us do not like at all.
2. Over the top descriptions that do not reflect reality. For example serious problems in the Divin room (as Jazzhead eloquently - and in a political correct way - made clear to us all) but over the top descriptions of the sound of this room undermine AE's credibility.
3. Very large speaker systems and in particular (huge) horn based systems require a lot of space to sound (really) good. Look at the pictures of the AE show rooms and of the listening rooms of many AE customers with very good systems: the listening spaces are quite small - or if you wish: very small indeed - in comparison to European and USA standards. Combining huge speakers with (very) small rooms is a recipy for audio/music disaster.
4. Audio products that are hyped on day 1 and that are being dumped on the next day. There are (too) many examples of this AE behavior. In my view this behavior undermines their credibility as well.

Using (very) high priced audio components myself so I have no problems at all with anybody trying to achieve audio nirvana and investing serious amounts of money to achieve this goal. But keep it 'real' or honest and stop using over the top descriptions that cannot be taken seriously by serious/experienced music lovers/audiophiles.

And just to be sure: I am the person who started the WBF threads on various Tripoint products in the first place so I know how good the Tripoint units are and that Miguel has an incredible sharp ear.

And lastly: apart from the fact I am a Kondo/Audio Note Japan user I have played for many years with various Zanden electronics (including amps, preamps and their phonostage) and I am still using the Zanden four box cd-player. Like Miguel mister Yamada is an 'audio wizard' making beautiful products. Without doubt his top of the line products will sound wonderful in the right set up and in the right environment.

 

[RogerD]

"The question is how much improvement was the grounding and how much was cables,electronics,source,or speakers...evidently the high end world hasn't fully grasped what grounding can do. So the question is if you remove the grounding and it makes a super system a mere normal sounding system. Is the prices or technology really worth the price asked. I would be more impressed with the system that reached a high level without the Tripoint grounding"

I believe that most people who even start to consider buying a Tripoint, knowing how expensive it is, are those already have all their fundamental hifi aspects of sound covered in their system. If your room acoustic sucks, fix that first, it's a whole lot cheaper. If your basic infrastructure of power line and grounding are not established, fix that first too.
Tripoint is something that add extra bit to your sound like making a Michelin one star restaurant to a two star. Why adding expensive special icing sugar on top while your pastry havent got the dough right? If your dough isnt right you wont even win a star in the first place, and the icing is not gonna fix your fundamental. Tripoint will definitely improve the sound regardless where your system stand. But the question how much improvement Tripoint gives, I think, the answer is all relative. For those want to up themself to two stars, the may find the improvement is crucial and detrimental to them. But those who already happy with the taste of their cooking, it might mean much less to them. This is my opinion.
One more thing, for people who live in a dense city like HK or Bangkok metro zone, it is highly unlikely they can put special grounding rods anywhere near their home.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hello Tang,
If anybody knows how signal or chassis grounding can have a positive effect on full system performance I do. As long as the electrical panel meets code and the electrical contractor is competent no special grounding rods should be needed. The Troy elite for the asking price better be transformative,that's all I'll say about that device.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm fully aware of the promise of grounding
Entreq has been beneficial in my system, esp in London where polluted pwr grid dominated my sound, and even here where pwr is much less of an issue
It gives me positives that take a great base sound and make it even more communicative
And the little I've heard of Troy means I know it would supercharge my system further
What I object to with Troy pricing is that the Elite has a limited capacity
With 4 grounding posts, it can only successfully ground 8 components (at 2 grounds per post), 12 if you push it, and I know Miguel only recommends grounding max 2 components per post
The vast majority of 2 source audiophile systems will need more than 8 grounds, and plenty will need more than 12
And what's not discussed much is that multiple grounds per component takes things even further
So to ground my tonearm, tt motor, phono, phono psu, cdp, (soon to be) streamer and dac,pre, pre psu, monos, Zu subs, would absolutely require 2 Elites, and 3-4 if one multiple grounds these components
I have issues that the Elite does not stretch to 8-12 terminals for the price asked
It's like having the very best Italian meal, and finding the main dish is one of those accountant controlled portions that looks more like a starter
And before I get criticised by the pro Tripoint guys, I'm someone who has invested serious cash in Entreq and know his approach is superior
But I also know it's possible to produce grounding units w terminals that go well beyond 4, and high end systems really do need at least 18-24 ground leads incl multiple component grounding
To spend close to $100k on Elite and a handful of cables and still find the whole system isn't covered strikes me as pretty crazy
Just my 2 cents

 

[Audiocrack]

I'm fully aware of the promise of grounding
Entreq has been beneficial in my system, esp in London where polluted pwr grid dominated my sound, and even here where pwr is much less of an issue
It gives me positives that take a great base sound and make it even more communicative
And the little I've heard of Troy means I know it would supercharge my system further
What I object to with Troy pricing is that the Elite has a limited capacity
With 4 grounding posts, it can only successfully ground 8 components (at 2 grounds per post), 12 if you push it, and I know Miguel only recommends grounding max 2 components per post
The vast majority of 2 source audiophile systems will need more than 8 grounds, and plenty will need more than 12
And what's not discussed much is that multiple grounds per component takes things even further
So to ground my tonearm, tt motor, phono, phono psu, cdp, (soon to be) streamer and dac,pre, pre psu, monos, Zu subs, would absolutely require 2 Elites, and 3-4 if one multiple grounds these components
I have issues that the Elite does not stretch to 8-12 terminals for the price asked
It's like having the very best Italian meal, and finding the main dish is one of those accountant controlled portions that looks more like a starter
And before I get criticised by the pro Tripoint guys, I'm someone who has invested serious cash in Entreq and know his approach is superior
But I also know it's possible to produce grounding units w terminals that go well beyond 4, and high end systems really do need at least 18-24 ground leads incl multiple component grounding
To spend close to $100k on Elite and a handful of cables and still find the whole system isn't covered strikes me as pretty crazy
Just my 2 cents

Crazy or not, it would be wise to try (at least) one Tripoint box in your system. And there is if course the Tripoint Emperor with eight binding posts.

Btw, did you try the Audio Refine fuses? As mentioned earlier, they are not only extremely good but also - in comparison to the AM beeswax and SR black fuses - priced very reasonable.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rudolph, fuses are on the "to do" list
However, I can entertain (just) Stacore-ing my whole system, but no way this PLUS Troy
And so for a couple of years yet Troy can't get a look in
But I am aware of its prowess
---
Rudolph, can you inform us to what the difference is between new Elite and existing Emperor box is? This latter unit is discontinued, yes?

 

[Audiocrack]

Rudolph, fuses are on the "to do" list
However, I can entertain (just) Stacore-ing my whole system, but no way this PLUS Troy
And so for a couple of years yet Troy can't get a look in
But I am aware of its prowess
---
Rudolph, can you inform us to what the difference is between new Elite and existing Emperor box is? This latter unit is discontinued, yes?

The emperor in indeed discontinued because that unit is very difficult to produce, that is very labour intensive. Only a handful of these magnificent beast were produced. They are interfering with the Tripoint production proces too much.

Have not heard the Elite myself so cannot compare the two units soundswise. The emperor is way bigger/heavier than the elite and has eight binding posts in stead of four (of the elite).

Need to speak with Miguel more in depth about the differences between the two. That said I am not planning to replace my emperor by the elite.

 

[Stereophonic]

Have no problems at all with trying to achieve stellar sound. But at stated before I do have problems with:

1. Outrageous/crazy pricing. Not only AE's fault but they play their role in setting totally crazy prices that nobody pays in the first place forcing audiophiles into a 'negotiation game' that most of us do not like at all.
If you don't know every dealer has a margin of discount, welcome to reality.
2. Over the top descriptions that do not reflect reality. For example serious problems in the Divin room (as Jazzhead eloquently - and in a political correct way - made clear to us all) but over the top descriptions of the sound of this room undermine AE's credibility.
One thing is the implementation of a different components and another one the quality that each of them have. But you are right, AE doesn't know how to setup a system but all the systems on Munich, CES, Axpona,..... sounds fantastic.
3. Very large speaker systems and in particular (huge) horn based systems require a lot of space to sound (really) good. Look at the pictures of the AE show rooms and of the listening rooms of many AE customers with very good systems: the listening spaces are quite small - or if you wish: very small indeed - in comparison to European and USA standards. Combining huge speakers with (very) small rooms is a recipy for audio/music disaster.
One more time. That's not my problem. If they are happy that way i respect them.
4. Audio products that are hyped on day 1 and that are being dumped on the next day. There are (too) many examples of this AE behavior. In my view this behavior undermines their credibility as well.
I'm not an AE client so i don't care.

Using (very) high priced audio components myself so I have no problems at all with anybody trying to achieve audio nirvana and investing serious amounts of money to achieve this goal. But keep it 'real' or honest and stop using over the top descriptions that cannot be taken seriously by serious/experienced music lovers/audiophiles.
I'm sorry to don't be so serious, experienced and so music lover or audiophile like you.

And just to be sure: I am the person who started the WBF threads on various Tripoint products in the first place so I know how good the Tripoint units are and that Miguel has an incredible sharp ear.
Try to ask to Miguel where their products are more valued and sold.

And lastly: apart from the fact I am a Kondo/Audio Note Japan user I have played for many years with various Zanden electronics (including amps, preamps and their phonostage) and I am still using the Zanden four box cd-player. Like Miguel mister Yamada is an 'audio wizard' making beautiful products. Without doubt his top of the line products will sound wonderful in the right set up and in the right environment.
Maybe you have access to great Zanden/Tripoint products thanks to the AE sales that brings to Zanden/Tripoint more research potential.

For allusions to my post i going to reply and leaving these thread.

Regards to all and keep on enjoying.....

PD: Mike, all right in a single sentence "WBF get's less of this than many forums, but we still get some. maybe only the AE forum has less of that talk, and what they have is more a respect and honor toward those who make such a huge commitment, and those who do make that commitment are not always those who are most able to do it. one does not follow the other."

 

[Audiocrack]

For allusions to my post i going to reply and leaving these thread.

Regards to all and keep on enjoying.....

Very mature reaction. Apparently it is difficult to accept that people might have different opinions. I would stay in this thread: some additional (audio) experience might not hurt you at all ...