5th AudioExotics Super Hi-End Show

[Audiocrack]

Oh, and I forgot as regards the cynicism about the AE badge you mentioned: apart from the outrageous price tags - a trend that is common in the uber high end and that in my view eventually will put a lot of (young) people off from our common hobby and that worries me - my scepticism (and btw not cynicism) is primarely fuelled by the following: (i) (way) too many flavor of the month audio products that are being hyped and soon after are completely forgotten, (ii) how on earth can you achieve great or even decent sound with (very) large horn based systems in - in comparison to European and USA standards - (very) small home situations.

 

[Jazzhead]

Thanks much Jazzhead. You are right - and Dietmar is wrong -: his Trinity components do (very clearly) benefit from grounding through Tripoint components. Pity Dietmar is so stubborn that he does not want to admit this.

Your description makes clear that the over the top descriptions of the Divin room should - in your view anyway - be taken with a (large) grain of salt.

Do I understand you correctly that due to the problems in the Divin room it is not yet possible to comment on the (real) potential of the new Zanden push pull amps and how they for example compare to the single ended Chouku Zanden amps?

Oh, and I forgot as regards the cynicism about the AE badge you mentioned: apart from the outrageous price tags - a trend that is common in the uber high end and that in my view eventually will put a lot of (young) people off from our common hobby and that worries me - my scepticism (and btw not cynicism) is primarely fuelled by the following: (i) (way) too many flavor of the month audio products that are being hyped and soon after are completely forgotten, (ii) how on earth can you achieve great or even decent sound with (very) large horn based systems in - in comparison to European and USA standards - (very) small home situations.

You are welcome AC . The KAUN apparently was readied close to the show date , and felt to be not fully burnt in . The powers that be decided to have it on a static only display . Thus no comparisons could be drawn , between the
two and yes , it would be premature to judge the Zanden Chouku given the final result at large . It may very well have been the cats whiskers to some , but all I can report back is on what I heard and perceived.

The Uber high end is not about mass sales , for a starter/ beginner it could be an aspirational trigger,that can conversely be viewed as an incentive to bring the younger generation into our fold . There were enough starry eyed youngsters at the show for this to be the case .It is a path , you work your way to the top . Some lucky few like you , to the very top .

I agree on the changing flavour of the month , but that is the part that befuddles, too much seemingly too soon . They have been able to push the boundaries ever upwards , mind you with matching price tags . They are fortunate enough to have a solid core group that will support this onward march . I have experienced three generational changes with touted AE front ends .. The Stahl Tek Opus CDT/DAC , the Origine CD player ( briefly in the limelight ) to the Trinity DAC . There is a denifite upward plateau to performance . Does that make yesterday's star poor sounding , no . There is simply better to be had.

Agree on the lack of space , you need something like these big showcase rooms to fully unleash their potential . Apparently there is a set up with I think the Cessaro Beethoven and matching Bass horns , where the owner has refurbished a warehouse to specially house them . Their mantra is to strive for progress , the economics or practicality given the enviornment be dammed . It is a business model which seems to be successful in their context .

 

[spiritofmusic]

What astounds me about the AE badge is the preponderance of exhorbitantly priced cables
Vertere, Tripoint, Dalby, Skogrand, Argento, Göbel, now Trinity, obv many others
Just how do the show runners pick the blend here?
And how many noses are put out of joint by being excluded?

 

[XV-1]

Scroll thru for more ... http://bbs.hifi168.com/bbs/showtopic-240402.aspx

View attachment 34447 View attachment 34448

Thanks Jazz!!

btw - I am sure the new Thales tonearm played a large part in enabling the vinyl to sound a lot better.

 

[Audiocrack]

You are welcome AC . The KAUN apparently was readied close to the show date , and felt to be not fully burnt in . The powers that be decided to have it on a static only display . Thus no comparisons could be drawn , between the
two and yes , it would be premature to judge the Zanden Chouku given the final result at large . It may very well have been the cats whiskers to some , but all I can report back is on what I heard and perceived.

The Uber high end is not about mass sales , for a starter/ beginner it could be an aspirational trigger,that can conversely be viewed as an incentive to bring the younger generation into our fold . There were enough starry eyed youngsters at the show for this to be the case .It is a path , you work your way to the top . Some lucky few like you , to the very top .

I agree on the changing flavour of the month , but that is the part that befuddles, too much seemingly too soon . They have been able to push the boundaries ever upwards , mind you with matching price tags . They are fortunate enough to have a solid core group that will support this onward march . I have experienced three generational changes with touted AE front ends .. The Stahl Tek Opus CDT/DAC , the Origine CD player ( briefly in the limelight ) to the Trinity DAC . There is a denifite upward plateau to performance . Does that make yesterday's star poor sounding , no . There is simply better to be had.

Agree on the lack of space , you need something like these big showcase rooms to fully unleash their potential . Apparently there is a set up with I think the Cessaro Beethoven and matching Bass horns , where the owner has refurbished a warehouse to specially house them . Their mantra is to strive for progress , the economics or practicality given the enviornment be dammed . It is a business model which seems to be successful in their context .

Hello Jazzhead, I think we agree on many points and maybe see things somewhat differentely on a few others.

I put "(young)" in my reaction between brackets on purpose: it not only applies to young people but to all folks that could become real audiophiles. But in addition: the young people of today might become the well to do of tomorrow being able to afford high quality audio equipment.

Of course all serious audiophiles 'work their audio way up' by replacing stuff and most of the time the new audio components are higher priced than the replaced audio components (but not necessarily so!). My point is: why are companies like AE (but of course there are many, many others) pricing their top of the bill audio components so outrageously while we all know that the 'street price' is much lower because - and rightly so - nobody wants to pay and actually pays these ridiculous prices? Prices like 200K and up for amps, even if they are really special, are crazy, also if you take into account the R&D. So why are audiophiles forced to join 'negotiation games' while most of us (I bet) do not like these 'games' at all? Price audio items sanely/fairly and stick to these prices like is done with most other consumer goods.

As regards flavor of the months products that have been dumped by AE: I am not not talking about changes due to (digital) progress, meaning the launch of new products that sound indeed indeed better due to technical developments/improvements. I can give you a whole list of the AE products I am referring to but I will refrain from doing so because I am not on a AE crash course or somehing like that and they should do their business as they seem fit.

Let's just say: I am rather skeptictal about all the hyperbole descriptions that originate from the Hong Kong AE website (untill they prove me wrong).

 

[853guy]

The Uber high end is not about mass sales , for a starter/ beginner it could be an aspirational trigger,that can conversely be viewed as an incentive to bring the younger generation into our fold . There were enough starry eyed youngsters at the show for this to be the case .It is a path , you work your way to the top . Some lucky few like you , to the very top .

I agree on the changing flavour of the month , but that is the part that befuddles, too much seemingly too soon . They have been able to push the boundaries ever upwards , mind you with matching price tags . They are fortunate enough to have a solid core group that will support this onward march . I have experienced three generational changes with touted AE front ends .. The Stahl Tek Opus CDT/DAC , the Origine CD player ( briefly in the limelight ) to the Trinity DAC . There is a denifite upward plateau to performance . Does that make yesterday's star poor sounding , no . There is simply better to be had..

What astounds me about the AE badge is the preponderance of exhorbitantly priced cables
Vertere, Tripoint, Dalby, Skogrand, Argento, Göbel, now Trinity, obv many others
Just how do the show runners pick the blend here?
And how many noses are put out of joint by being excluded?

Of course all serious audiophiles 'work their audio way up' by replacing stuff and most of the time the new audio components are higher priced than the replaced audio components (but not necessarily so!). My point is: why are companies like AE (but of course there are many, many others) pricing their top of the bill audio components so outrageously while we all know that the 'street price' is much lower because - and rightly so - nobody wants to pay and actually pays these ridiculous prices? Prices like 200K and up for amps, even if they are really special, are crazy, also if you take into account the R&D. So why are audiophiles forced to join 'negotiation games' while most of us (I bet) do not like these 'games' at all? Price audio items sanely/fairly and stick to these prices like is done with most other consumer goods.

As regards flavor of the months products that have been dumped by AE: I am not not talking about changes due to (digital) progress, meaning the launch of new products that sound indeed indeed better due to technical developments/improvements. I can give you a whole list of the AE products I am referring to but I will refrain from doing so because I am not on a AE crash course or somehing like that and they should do their business as they seem fit.

Let's just say: I am rather skeptictal about all the hyperbole descriptions that originate from the Hong Kong AE website (untill they prove me wrong).

Hello gents,

One of the temptations in discussing these sorts of things is generalising from the particular. In the case of AE, whose forum I’ve followed for a number of years, we’re talking about a very, very small sample size from a very, very wealthy income bracket. In my perspective, AE is taking advantage of a long tail strategy, in which a business attempts to realise significant profit from the selling of small volumes of exclusive products to a select number of individuals. This sort of strategy obeys a power law distribution (Pareto distribution) in which scale-free networks and preferential attachment are created and fuelled, rather than a more traditional normal distribution in which large volumes of lesser priced products are sold to the greatest possible number of individuals.

It’s also one of the few high end businesses that has the cultural clout to take on and dispense with manufacturer after manufacturer, and also commission bespoke products from manufacturers specific to their needs. That it can do so in a climate of economic volatility (which a few of AE’s members mention themselves on the forum) is pretty extraordinary.

I think it’s worth acknowledging Asian markets specifically have been shown in consumer behaviour surveys to demand exclusivity and equate price with quality, so AE is well-placed to take advantage of an economy that has seen tremendous growth as trade barriers and regulations have been relaxed, income has been rising, and with it, a burgeoning upper-middle class for whom discretionary spending has increased.

Personally, I’d resist attempting to extrapolate much of anything of what makes AE successful into the domain of a normal distribution model, or other parts of the world. Audio Exotics is an outlier among outliers, existing in a rarefied stratosphere in which “normal” does not necessarily apply.

Whether or not the above has any bearing on its systems being musically meaningful to those who can afford the price of admission is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.

Be well,

853guy

 

[spiritofmusic]

All I can say is 5 years ago, Stahl Tek was the darling of the AE set
Today, the same guys are using Vekians as door stops and paper weights
Nothing like the Darwinian brutality of a company like Neodio not even getting discussed anymore on their forums
And I remain amazed/perplexed that a company like Vertere is so revered over there, when I can name dozens of high end tts, arms and cables I prefer by a large margin
Touraj of Vertere is the ultimate example of what makes AE tick
A solid engineer back in the day (I ran an all-Roksan system back in 1997-2000) with a serviceable if unremarkable family of products
He reappears many years later w Vertere, that in my exposure to it a dozen times at shows is consistent in not being any major advance over Roksan
But w prices 20-50x what he used to pitch Roksan at, and plenty of bling factor, they can't get enough of his gear out there

 

[853guy]

All I can say is 5 years ago, Stahl Tek was the darling of the AE set
Today, the same guys are using Vekians as door stops and paper weights
Nothing like the Darwinian brutality of a company like Neodio not even getting discussed anymore on their forums
And I remain amazed/perplexed that a company like Vertere is so revered over there, when I can name dozens of high end tts, arms and cables I prefer by a large margin
Touraj of Vertere is the ultimate example of what makes AE tick
A solid engineer back in the day (I ran an all-Roksan system back in 1997-2000) with a serviceable if unremarkable family of products
He reappears many years later w Vertere, that in my exposure to it a dozen times at shows is consistent in not being any major advance over Roksan
But w prices 20-50x what he used to pitch Roksan at, and plenty of bling factor, they can't get enough of his gear out there

Hi Spirit,

Yes, perhaps.

I guess the question is: Does an online forum convey anything beyond the immediate thoughts of those posting on said forum? Probably not.

Like most things virtual, we tend to focus most on whatever appeared last, the problem being appearances can be deceiving, and it’s not hard for a single voice posting about X to disproportionately swing perception away from more salient but less visible data. Like WBF, there are possibly many users of products from manufacturers that no longer dominate forum posts, but that of course, does not mean those users are still not deriving huge enjoyment from them despite the ubiquity of attention being drawn toward newer products.

Conversely, a thousand posts about a given product does also not mean that same said product has market share of equivalent value, and of course, says nothing about that product’s ability to convey music meaningfully to anyone other than those for whom decide it is so. I notice many of AE member’s posts refer to hearing X at their showroom or at the residence of another member, less about those who then purchase them for their own systems. Again, online column inches are really ever only a indicator of what people feel like posting about at any given time - it would be a mistake to confuse stated preference (what people say) for revealed preference (what people buy). (1)

Vertere? Again, I can only say what I said above… Even should one be in a position to afford the price of admission, it still may fall short of one’s preferential expectations, irrespective of its prevalence in forum posts and/or reviewer rhetoric.

Best,

853guy

(1) By my count, we’ve had over 1900 posts on Apogees. The number of people who actually own them who contributed to those threads? Less than 1% of the total number of postings.

 

[wisnon]

how about -4- 7 foot tall, 750 pound, towers; with 2 towers passive and 97db, 7 ohms, with 550 watts into 8 ohm amplifiers, the other 2 towers active, with -4- 15" power subwoofers per tower, and a pair of 1000 watt amplifiers in each bass tower. and the -3db deep bass extension is 7hz, the -6db extension is 3hz.

the Evolution Acoustics MM7's with dart 458 mono blocks.

I'm not taking anything away from the Gobel Divin. but this type of authority and ability to energize and control a very large room, or even higher, is out there. it's not unique.

Yup, the Stenheim reference statement can do it, the Goldmund Apologues as well. Not to mention the new Von Schweikert towers that stole the show in Axpona a few months back.

No shortage of overkill in this game.

 

[spiritofmusic]

No shortage of big hitters
One has to wonder how Cessaro can sound so lacking demoing the Gammas at Munich Show, and so stellar demoing the Carmen at AE Show
Maybe where AE have the edge is getting the difference w attention to acoustics, pwr and grounding

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jazzhead, any further thoughts specifically on The Disc Rotator, w Thales arm, Etsuo cart thru the brand new Koda phono?
This tt really gets my pulse racing (unusually, since my blood mainly stirred by idlers and DDs)
This seems like a star of the show
Certainly more alluring and convincing than a certain Perspex plinthed tt also playing at the AE Show

 

[wisnon]

Edge?

I dont think ANY show will outshine Warsaw in those (necessarily) sound isolated television broacasting rooms at the National Stadium. Only one glass window to worry about. Only 49 rooms available though...

See examples here:

 

[Audiocrack]

No shortage of big hitters
One has to wonder how Cessaro can sound so lacking demoing the Gammas at Munich Show, and so stellar demoing the Carmen at AE Show
Maybe where AE have the edge is getting the difference w attention to acoustics, pwr and grounding

All the rooms in Munich sound quite awful. You need to be a real audio magician (or applying special tricks such as Kevin Scott does with his battery packs) to get really good sound in Munich.

 

[spiritofmusic]

What's fascinating is that AE display their wares in these oversized rooms, hardly any of which exist in HK as far as I can tell
But maybe only these rooms can allow such exotic gear to breathe
I wonder how many pairs of "entry level (£50k)" Cessaro Wagners are sold in the back of these successful Cessaro Carmen showings at AE? A whole load I'm sure
For me the most interesting component at AE this year was The Disc Rotator tt, teamed up w uber Thales tonearm, Etsuo cart and brand new Koda phono
The fact it blew away the JMF digital gave me a nice warm glow
Does anyone know more about this tt? Info online is limited, and it's piqued my curiosity
Any idea on price?

 

[GaryProtein]

I also think of the rockport arrakis (1 tweeter, 2x5.25" mids, 2x8" midbass, 2x15"woofer per tower) and the exceptionally carefully designed, monocoque moulded cabinetry...and the mighty 4-tower Genesis 1s. I suppose one could add the 4-tower Wilsons (either WAMM or even XLF + dual Thors).

In terms of a 2-tower set, I suppose there are fewer that match the driver surface area which as Dave C and Roger D are pointing out makes a big difference. Arrakis is perhaps very similar in surface area and from my 'guesstimate impression' did make a pair of big Wilsons seem like Alexias.

The players in the show were conspiucuously missing some biggies.

Nola Grand Reference 4 tower
MBL X-Treme 4 tower
Maarten Coultrane
Gryphon Pendragon 4 tower

among others in and out of production.

 

[Stereophonic]

Don't worry.
These men are working hard to do it bigger...

 

[bonzo75]

The players in the show were conspiucuously missing some biggies.

Nola Grand Reference 4 tower
MBL X-Treme 4 tower
Maarten Coultrane
Gryphon Pendragon 4 tower

among others in and out of production.

The best room in Munich is usually the Western Electrics, and he (Cheung who is one of the Hyundai owners and now has 25% in Samsung) can buy out most of the AE people - of course his tweeters this year each were north of a 100k I heard, and there were 4 such. Each valve on his mono last year was $15k. And the guys who hang out there - Schroeder, Shick, Silbatone, John Roberts, have a very different taste to the Cessaro sound

 

[spiritofmusic]

You're right Ked
These AE guys may on the face of it seem the most dedicated out there guys when it comes to audio addiction
But the world of horns is a very deep one, and the Carmen is a mere player here
Didn't one of the Mono/Stereo founders return from an uber tricked out custom horns install involving, what seven levels of active amplification, seven individually clocked dacs, a whole analogue record collection carefully archived to digital using exacting RIAA curves, and an amazing custom pair of horns w seven drivers per channel?
By all accounts the sound is like nothing on earth
I don't believe there was a single AE brand in that system
Audio Consulting in CH do an amazing state of the art loudspeaker system, the Rubanoide with a class leading DD tt
Again, one would want to hear this before signing the cheque for Divin or Carmen or Qia Long on Trinity, Engström or uber Zanden

 

[wisnon]

As a real world sized speaker, i am hearing good things about LumenWhite Kyara.

 

[bonzo75]

You're right Ked
These AE guys may on the face of it seem the most dedicated out there guys when it comes to audio addiction
But the world of horns is a very deep one, and the Carmen is a mere player here
Didn't one of the Mono/Stereo founders return from an uber tricked out custom horns install involving, what seven levels of active amplification, seven individually clocked dacs, a whole analogue record collection carefully archived to digital using exacting RIAA curves, and an amazing custom pair of horns w seven drivers per channel?
By all accounts the sound is like nothing on earth
I don't believe there was a single AE brand in that system
Audio Consulting in CH do an amazing state of the art loudspeaker system, the Rubanoide with a class leading DD tt
Again, one would want to hear this before signing the cheque for Divin or Carmen or Qia Long on Trinity, Engström or uber Zanden

Yes that was a 6 or 7 way horn, individually clocked dac for each driver, and each driver biamped. Pietro and Gian know that person, he is in Italy. But his system is work in progress.